Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Gianfranco]

Yeah it feels like a change is going to happen at some point this season. The chat in the car journey home for us was about who was available to take over.

 

Also we have no exciting players at all. I’d kill for a Marvin Johnson type player.

[MJC]

16 minutes ago, Gianfranco said:

Yeah it feels like a change is going to happen at some point this season. The chat in the car journey home for us was about who was available to take over.

 

Also we have no exciting players at all. I’d kill for a Marvin Johnson type player.

That's two points which are the most worrying. That we are more likely than not just going to hand the job to someone like Lasley if and when the time comes and that we have no one in that team you can look to and think "he can make the difference today". In that infamous 2002/03 season we had Faddy, in 1995/96 we had Paul Lambert and Tommy Coyne, in Malpas' season we had Scott McDonald and then Ross McCormack and even in the playoff season we had Johnson, McDonald and arguably Sutton. This current side has nothing to offer any hope whatsoever.

[Desp]

On 19/10/2018 at 13:09, Desp said:

I've got a couple of spare comps for the Cooper Stand tomorrow if any  PATG punters want them?  I've a few things on pre-match, so it'll be a case of meeting outside the club shop around about 2:55pm.

Not much of a prize, I'll admit, but happy for a fellow 'Well fan to avoid paying £20+ to watch what will be served up.

I had two spare tickets for the game today.  I couldn't give them away. Literally. 

Grim, grim stuff.

As much as it pains me to say it (I like Robbo as a man) but it appears he's run out of ideas and his time is up. 

Based on his time with the young team, do we think Craigan would/could step up?  

[Gianfranco]

I’d imagine Craigan is quite happy with his tv and youth team roles. I’d like him to take the managers job.

[MJC]

I'd certainly be happier with Craigan being handed the job than Lasley. He has a bit of managerial experience under his belt, albeit at youth level whereas Lasley has none. In our position we really cannot afford to be handing the job to someone cutting their teeth from scratch in a managerial role.

The problem there is, as touched on, would Craigan really want the gig just now?

[capt_oats]

Craigan was pretty emphatic that he wasn't interested the last time the job was going so I don't really see that much will have changed in terms of his position. I think us emptying Robinson, who he's pretty tight with, would only reinforce that further.

Like most I like Robinson and I'd say for the most part he's been absolutely fine. Kept us up 16/17. 7th and 2 cup finals 17/18. As I said in the match thread though there's a heavy McCall 14/15 vibe about the season so far. I'm in agreement that it seems very much to be a case of when, not if we're looking for a new manager now. As Desp says he appears to have run out of ideas.

9 league games played with 1 win and 6 losses and only 8 goals scored...isnae great. Both McCall (7 points) and Baraclough (7 points from 8 games) had more points on the board by this stage in their swansong seasons.

Valakari was interviewed at the same time as Robinson and having looked at his stats at Tromsø IL his deal apparently runs through to 2020 according to Transfermarkt but they're sitting 10th (of 16) with 5 games of their season left to play and they were scudded 5-1 last week by Kristiansund. I'm not going to pretend I have any sort of in depth knowledge (or any knowledge at all) of Norwegian football in terms of how he's actually done (they finished 11th last season from what I can see).

Right now it feels like a fresh perspective is what we need rather than any major overhaul of the squad. Which is a positive of sorts.

I heard McManus on the radio a while back pretty much saying that the model we've got in place is designed to allow us to promote from within so in that respect you're looking at Lasley (who applied the last time I think). However I only really see that being viable if Robinson was to move to another club or had moved on at the end of his current deal in 2020.

The other name who was in the frame after McGhee was binned was John Hughes who is obviously still available but I think I'm on pretty safe ground in saying that that idea can absolutely GTF.

Edit: if anyone's particularly bored this evening here's a 20 min video of Valakari explaining what he's about to Tromsø supporters. With a wee mention of his time at Fir Park. Big ups to the product placement as well.

 

Edited October 20, 2018 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Don't know about anyone else but I'm really in the mood for a Fanta

[Swello]

When even Steelmen online isn't in batshit seethe mode after a last minute special like that today - then we are in the apathy stage, which is probably worse...

It's been clear for a while that after a really good summer window last time, this summer has been a small disaster. Only one new signing starting and then hobbling off after 25 mins isn't really a good advert. Gianfranco's point above about exciting players is the same as I said at the game today - there is no-one picking up the ball in attack that the opposition would be worried about. The biggest mistake made this summer to my mind was not adding pace to the attack and today showed that perfectly.

On Robinson - there's definitely a point being reached as there are vanishingly few positives at the moment going to the game - we need to change our approach as it's not bad luck that is losing us games - it's shite defending and not being able to hit the target with shots that is killing us. Unlike some, I've got no problem with the style of play Robinson favours - I enjoyed it last season - but all the stuff it relies on - being fitter than the other team, winning every second ball, bodying folk left, right & centre isn't happening and as a result, we are much easier to play against.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

5 minutes ago, Swello said:

Unlike some, I've got no problem with the style of play Robinson favours - I enjoyed it last season - but all the stuff it relies on - being fitter than the other team, winning every second ball, bodying folk left, right & centre isn't happening and as a result, we are much easier to play against.

Aye. One thing I noticed today was Main getting bodied off the ball by one of the identikit St Johnstone defenders- might have been Kerr actually- despite being about twice the size of him. Not sure if we've had to shut down the Thunderdome or if its a loss of confidence but he's totally off the pace.

[capt_oats]

18 hours ago, Swello said:

When even Steelmen online isn't in batshit seethe mode after a last minute special like that today - then we are in the apathy stage, which is probably worse...

It's been clear for a while that after a really good summer window last time, this summer has been a small disaster. Only one new signing starting and then hobbling off after 25 mins isn't really a good advert. Gianfranco's point above about exciting players is the same as I said at the game today - there is no-one picking up the ball in attack that the opposition would be worried about. The biggest mistake made this summer to my mind was not adding pace to the attack and today showed that perfectly.

On Robinson - there's definitely a point being reached as there are vanishingly few positives at the moment going to the game - we need to change our approach as it's not bad luck that is losing us games - it's shite defending and not being able to hit the target with shots that is killing us. Unlike some, I've got no problem with the style of play Robinson favours - I enjoyed it last season - but all the stuff it relies on - being fitter than the other team, winning every second ball, bodying folk left, right & centre isn't happening and as a result, we are much easier to play against.

Aside from the obvious, one of the unfortunate impacts of the summer transfer policy (from his point of view) is that it's left Robinson with a starting XI which has a direct comparison and frame of reference because it's almost exactly the same team as the Jan - May 18. There are no 'bedding in' or 'players needing time to gel' arguments.

This is the league table post-winter break. So it's after Moult and post-December slump:

If we're not getting even comparable performances from those players or comparable results in general then it's a legitimate question to ask 'why?'.

Spoiler

Edit to add: here's the league table post-winter break up until the split.

 

Edited October 21, 2018 by capt_oats

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Robinson has a lot of good qualities and I think there's potential for him to be a decent manager either at Motherwell or, if he does get another chance, elsewhere. I do wonder though if we've maybe gave him a wee bit too much power in some areas. I'm not suggesting Alan Burrows channels his inner Romanov and starts picking the team but it does seem weird that we've given a guy in his second managerial post free reign to essentially mold Motherwell in his own image. Seems like nobody else at the club thought to question the signing of 4000 central midfielders at once or the whole 12-18 saga.

Edited October 21, 2018 by YassinMoutaouakil

[YassinMoutaouakil]

3 hours ago, capt_oats said:

This is the league table post-winter break. So it's after Moult and post-December slump:

If we're not getting even comparable performances from those players or comparable results in general then it's a legitimate question to ask 'why?'.

It's obviously a pretty obscure stat so makes sense that it's never came up before but I had no idea we had the third best defence after Celtic/Aberdeen that half season.

Robinson in.

[capt_oats]

7 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

It's obviously a pretty obscure stat so makes sense that it's never came up before but I had no idea we had the third best defence after Celtic/Aberdeen that half season.
Robinson in.

Aye, it’s worth remembering that 5 of those goals against came in one game against St Johnstone too. So what’s that? 12 goals against in 16 games?

Really the defence covered up the fact that while Main was chipping in overall post-Moult we weren’t really free-scoring. An average of a goal a game means you’re clearly relying on your defence to be bailing you out. In fact, we were hardly banging them in with Moult. The 3-0 at Fir Park against Thistle was the only time we scored more than 2 in the league while he was at the club last season.

I suppose that’s why the Sammon signing stands out as being particularly weird. We just doubled down in the bald dude stakes rather than bring in someone who offers something different.

Now we’re in the position where Main looks lacking in confidence. We don’t have a Moult, a McDonald, a Sutton or a Higdon (even an Ainsworth to ping one in from ridiculous distances) so one goal is enough bury us.

As Swello says earlier in the thread it’s not bad luck we’re losing games. It’s the fact we’re not taking our chances when they’re presented and whether it’s through defensive lapses or wonder-strikes we’re still conceding.

On the positive side though; David Turnbull is an absolute #baller.

Edited October 21, 2018 by capt_oats

[Casagolda]

Just 1 goal in 4 home games against Hamilton, Hearts, Livingston and St Johnstone- is it any wonder 1000 people have already dropped off our attendance from the Hamilton game to yesterday?

We had a solid base to build on but Robinson went for quantity over quality this summer and here we are. A bloated squad severely lacking in quality that’s chock full of absolutely bang average players. 

It’s hard to see where Robinson can go from here, he looked fairly deflated and dare I say it beaten in his post match interview. Calling out the senior players and telling them they need to stand up to me sounds like the last act of a desperate man who knows full well he’s running out of time.

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, Casagolda said:

Just 1 goal in 4 home games against Hamilton, Hearts, Livingston and St Johnstone- is it any wonder 1000 people have already dropped off our attendance from the Hamilton game to yesterday?

We had a solid base to build on but Robinson went for quantity over quality this summer and here we are. A bloated squad severely lacking in quality that’s chock full of absolutely bang average players. 

It’s hard to see where Robinson can go from here, he looked fairly deflated and dare I say it beaten in his post match interview. Calling out the senior players and telling them they need to stand up to me sounds like the last act of a desperate man who knows full well he’s running out of time.

Ultimately one of Robinson's many problems is that the solid base he was working on have regressed in terms of their levels.

As you said the other day, the difference between us now and the same time last season is night and day. The same spark, energy and intensity, in fact everything that made us good last season just isn't there and I'm guessing that's something that has completely blindsided Robinson (unsurprisingly). Whether the players simply over-performed last season or if they're being hit with the same message day in, day out and have just 'switched off' in classic FM team-talk mode IDK but it seems he's made a number of misjudgements and over-estimations. It's coming round to bite him on the arse in spectacular fashion.

As far as I can see Robinson's approach in the summer was predicated on a number of assumptions:

• that retaining last season's squad would mean they could build and kick on.
• we were defensively sound and that would continue into this season even if it meant swapping Aldred in after Kipré's inevitable departure.
• if Bigi moved on as everyone (including the player) expected we'd move Cadden in to CM and have Tait back at RWB with ATS at LWB.
• we'd be able to get by without Tanner with the various central midfielders we have.
• Main would replace Moult as his goalscorer and be #thedifference.

As it stands Main's scored one league goal in 8 starts. Johnson has 2 in 4 league starts. The rest of those calls? They've not really happened eh?

Our 3 best results since the league season started (Livi in the LC, Rangers at FP and Dundee at Dens) all came with Danny Johnson starting.  He scored in all 3 too. He's also our joint top goalscorer for the season along with Main (both have scored 4).

We're back to Main and Bowman as a first choice partnership with Johnson being chucked on off the bench to chase the game.

I'm not saying that Johnson is #theanswer but it's up for debate whether Main/Bowman is actually our best pairing. I understand why Robinson's trying to throwback to what he feels allowed us to shitfest our way to some points but if that's not working (and it's not) then unless he can take a step back and get a bit of perspective on what the problem is and then implement a solution then it's only going one way for him.

Edited October 21, 2018 by capt_oats

[MJC]

The problem with Main and Bowman is that they are not goalscorers in the mould of McDonald, Higdon or Moult but are both the type of forward player that would benefit from playing alongside someone like those guys as a foil. It's no coincidence that Bowman's best spell with us was August - November last year when he was partnering Moult up front but Moult then left and we have brought in another Bowman to partner Bowman. And surprise surprise it isn't working. Main in particular cuts a very frustrated figure, completely lacking in confidence but he simply does not possess the ability to be a Louis Moult type player and he has had one decent performance since the Scottish Cup semi final six months ago. The problem is that Robinson seems determined to persist with the Main/Bowman partnership or else the even worse Main/Sammon one.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

13 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

It's obviously a pretty obscure stat so makes sense that it's never came up before but I had no idea we had the third best defence after Celtic/Aberdeen that half season.

Robinson in.

And we were solid yesterday when 2/3rds of the Kipre - Aldred - Dunne trio was playing.  And most of this season we have been chopping and changing.

Also last season we switched seamlessly to a back 4 at times if things needed changing.

[MJC]

 

This was a exactly a year ago, or a year tomorrow if going by date. Oh for a Louis Moult in this current side.

What a difference a year makes, this was one of my favourite ever days following Motherwell and one of the top moments.

[Busta Nut]

Andrew Scott joins Sparra, Busta and Jay to look back on the defeat to St Johnstone, discuss Stephen Robinson’s future at the club, Motherwell Colts’ success over Sligo Rovers, Colin O’Neill’s comments on the current situation at Fir Park and much more.

https://www.mfc1886.com/mfc-podcast-2018-19-episode-14/
 

[Casagolda]

The thing about us that day at Hampden and the majority of last season was that we had character and a bit of bottle. That was what seen us through so many games, even post Louis Moult. 

This season we seem to have developed something of a glass jaw, a soft centre. At Tynecastle we needlessly chucked away a lead just before half time, we then equalised with 10 mins to go and still couldn’t manage to see it out to extra time. A few days later we were a goal up at Rugby Park with less than 10 mins to go to half time and somehow contrived to go in behind. On Saturday we had a point and our first clean sheet in the league this season going into stoppage time and ended up with nothing.

I mean the lack of quality is nothing new and is to be expected nowadays under Robinson- however this new weak, soft centred Motherwell is far more worrying. Our ability to fight, scrap and grind out a few results was the one thing I thought would keep our heads above water this season. I mean if that’s gone, what else do we have left?

At a certain point you have to wonder if a change is just needed. Things have gone stale, the players as individuals and as a team look a shadow of what they were last season and Robinson just looks like he’s got no idea how to turn things round other than to ‘work even harder’.

I imagine he’ll get these next 2 games and if they go as expected, that will probably be that.