Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[thisGRAEME]

The Dons binning him is absolutely bonkers, for my money. For all Hibs seem a bit of a shambles just now on the park, the collection of decent laddies around the place certainly seems to ensure that there's none of the toxicity that some Hibs' squads of years' past had, even when they're binning staff left right and centre.

Particularly when they're going through a period of shifting in and out loads of players, why would you not keep a guy who can perform 10-15 games a season and keep the dressing room right?

[Sortmeout]

14 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

The Dons binning him is absolutely bonkers, for my money. For all Hibs seem a bit of a shambles just now on the park, the collection of decent laddies around the place certainly seems to ensure that there's none of the toxicity that some Hibs' squads of years' past had, even when they're binning staff left right and centre.

Particularly when they're going through a period of shifting in and out loads of players, why would you not keep a guy who can perform 10-15 games a season and keep the dressing room right?

I’m confused.

[well fan for life]

32 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

The Dons binning him is absolutely bonkers, for my money. For all Hibs seem a bit of a shambles just now on the park, the collection of decent laddies around the place certainly seems to ensure that there's none of the toxicity that some Hibs' squads of years' past had, even when they're binning staff left right and centre.

Particularly when they're going through a period of shifting in and out loads of players, why would you not keep a guy who can perform 10-15 games a season and keep the dressing room right?

100% this. Would have thought he'd be a stick on to have in the dressing room for at least another season and then get on to a coaching role.

My pal's a dons fan and he's ready to match up to Pittodrie, pitchfork in hand over this.

[welldaft]

What about Reece McAlear ? 

Out of contract at Norwich this summer. Currently scoring worldies on loan at Inverness. As such reported interest from St Johnstone, St Mirren and Killie. 

We got an undisclosed fee 3 years ago. Would he come back ? Would we want him back ?

I would hate for one of the above mentioned 3 clubs to pick him up only for them to get a good player and decent transfer fee further down the road. Not a given I understand and he may be going through a Hastie period on loan. But by all accounts he has done a damn fine job up north. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by welldaft

[Handsome_Devil]

14 minutes ago, welldaft said:

What about Reece McAlear ? 

Out of contract at Norwich this summer. Currently scoring worldies on loan at Inverness. As such reported interest from St Johnstone, St Mirren and Killie. 

We got an undisclosed fee 3 years ago. Would he come back ? Would we want him back ?

I would hate for one of the above mentioned 3 clubs to pick him up only for them to get a good player and decent transfer fee further down the road. Not a given I understand and he may be going through a Hastie period on loan. But by all accounts he has done a damn fine job up north. 

I was surprised we weren't mentioned in those sniffing around...can't say I've seen that much of him for ICT but he seems to get decent reviews and there'd certainly be some logic in him coming back.

If you're making things overly simple and saying we have Maguire and Donnelly/new guy as holding players, Tierney as a potential 10, there's only Cornelius, Slattery and Goss competing for probably two spots going up and down. Which while not on the same priority as a new left back etc, isn't really enough. 

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, well fan for life said:

100% this. Would have thought he'd be a stick on to have in the dressing room for at least another season and then get on to a coaching role.

My pal's a dons fan and he's ready to match up to Pittodrie, pitchfork in hand over this.

It's a shame a loyal player leaves on bad terms but having read the club statement - assuming it's true - it's a real wtf moment...you know players are well paid, particularly up there, but the guy - 35 and after serious injury - has turned down a minimum hundred grand a year (!) plus basically a path to having a job for life at Pittodrie if he wants it. Does he really think he'll do better elsewhere? Am I just so wildly out of touch with football salaries that this was a really insulting offer? On the face of it he's insane.

[Neil86]

As someone mentioned up above, I wouldn't be surprised if Cove offered him similar and maybe even more again, given they look set for the championship. He might reckon he has something to offer on the park and Aberdeen couldn't promise that?

[capt_oats]

45 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I was surprised we weren't mentioned in those sniffing around...can't say I've seen that much of him for ICT but he seems to get decent reviews and there'd certainly be some logic in him coming back.

If you're making things overly simple and saying we have Maguire and Donnelly/new guy as holding players, Tierney as a potential 10, there's only Cornelius, Slattery and Goss competing for probably two spots going up and down. Which while not on the same priority as a new left back etc, isn't really enough. 

I thought the same as I'd always quite liked the look of him and he seemed like he could develop into a player who could do us a turn.

Refreshing my memory, from what Burrows said at the time it was unlikely he going to renew his contract with us (presumably because he was aware of Norwich's interest) which is fine and unsurprising given the opportunity but I guess we've since changed manager and even the guy who was taking the Reserves while he was here has moved on (Ross).

It'd only really be the coaching staff who were here with Robinson who'd have worked with McAlear that would be advocating for him and I suppose the question is whether or not there are players in the 18s who'd be likely to step up pathway wise (Lennon Miller?) or whether we're looking for a more "first team ready" option for that position. He left us when he was 17 and he's only just turned 20 now.

Quote

Motherwell chief executive Alan Burrows said: “It is very much our hope that the player development pathway we provide at Motherwell results in our academy graduates progressing to professional level, then eventually into the first team.

“We had high hopes for Reece. He was getting closer and closer and indeed, played several first-team friendly matches during pre-season.

"We had positive conversations with the player, his family and his representatives about extending his stay.

“However, it was clear this was an opportunity Reece wanted to explore and probably would’ve explored, when his contract expired at the end of the season, had we not managed to agree a deal with Norwich now.

“This will see the club secure cash in advance, as well as maintaining some economic rights should his career continue to develop."

Link

Edited April 6, 2022 by capt_oats

[Kapowzer]

I suppose if he was to return a lot of it depends on the the manner he left the first time and if anyone said things they now regret. Rid necks and pride count for a lot.

If we have others on our list considered to offer more then by all means let merit guide Alexander's summer shopping spree. If it is felt he can do a job and everything ended on amicable terms then why not?

If by September there's a chance the returning starlet is Tweeting about smoking cigars maybe don't bother.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Kapowzer

[YassinMoutaouakil]

Does Considine have the same agent as Richard Tait?

[Kapowzer]

2 hours ago, thisGRAEME said:

The Dons binning him is absolutely bonkers, for my money. For all Hibs seem a bit of a shambles just now on the park, the collection of decent laddies around the place certainly seems to ensure that there's none of the toxicity that some Hibs' squads of years' past had, even when they're binning staff left right and centre.

Particularly when they're going through a period of shifting in and out loads of players, why would you not keep a guy who can perform 10-15 games a season and keep the dressing room right?

Did you feel a post about Scott Allan or Kyle Magennis would double up and work here?

Paste, redo the first sentence and then go "ahhh f**k it" ...... <submit reply>

[ZX1886]

Am I mental or would Andy Considine do a job?

He’s going to end up at Killie.

Unfortunate because I’d like to see the media team set a race between him, Ojala and Sol.

[Neil86]

Is there a chance Bailey Rice could make the step up or is he a bit young still?

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, Neil86 said:

Is there a chance Bailey Rice could make the step up or is he a bit young still?

He's 15 so probably a bit young. https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/bailey-rice/profil/spieler/924849

Miller's also 15 so scrub that mention I made about him earlier https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/lennon-miller/profil/spieler/924857

Both turn 16 this year.

Unrelated but who's the boy on the right of the photo in the 8th slide of the post the club put up on IG earlier. Big Vic Nirennold is apparently 6ft 4" so yer man must be legit huge.

Edited April 6, 2022 by capt_oats

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

i was going to say he must have put in a wee jump step to be a full head above Mugabi but you can see his foot is nearly planted on the ground.

 

[welldaft]

1 hour ago, Neil86 said:

Is there a chance Bailey Rice could make the step up or is he a bit young still?

Only 15 and starring in the Scotland under 17’s. No wonder there are rumours of Rangers and English Premiership clubs sniffing about. 

If does not just affect Motherwell as we know from Gilmour joining Chelsea and Doakes going from Celtic to Liverpool recently.

My point is this. Is there any point of having an Academy ? Will we ever have another Turnbull on our hands ? Most young players with promise leave by the time they are 16/17 such as McAlear and McKinstry. Sure we get a few hundred 000. But if Rice and Miller are the real deal they could be worth £millions in a few years time

[Kapowzer]

I think the current model where the clubs with deep pockets just hoover up young players and farm them out on loans is something we are going to have to accept. I can't see anyone in government, UEFA or FIFA doing anything to upset their cash cow clubs. You don't do stuff to benefit East Fife, Motherwell, Gillingham or Mansfield Town at the expense of Man Utd and Celtic.

Chelsea for example have something like 49 young players out on loan, Gilmour being the most well known up here. This is done in the hope one of two kids make it per year. All they are doing is spreading their bets by leaving behind the 80 kids over 5 age groups model for 500 kids. They just get the extra 400 from the teams further down the chain lured by the big name and bright lights. It is to the detriment of the wee clubs who tend to pick up talent from kids who live local to them.

Gordon Young once shared 10 years ago it was well known that the OF have A & B teams that don't know about each other. Their parents are told to report for training on different days. Why? to get round the number they could have on the books. Also in this neck of the woods, many a father has been guilty of living vicariously through their child wanting into a players lounge on a Saturday rather than what is best for their kids development.

We've lost McKinstry and MacAleer to it before we got to see them. Hastie, Erwin, Scott, Turnbull and some ginger p***k who does a podcast after only really seeing them for a year max. Allan Campbell is the only one we really got any sort of significant first team payback from. Hastie netted a cool £1m for his 4 year deal. He would have had to stay with us long enough till he got testimonial (and also be consistently good) to earn that at FP.

The game changed when TV started to pay more than the punters tickets, again when Bosman happened. Cash is king and has been for quite a while.

Edited April 6, 2022 by Kapowzer

[Handsome_Devil]

9 hours ago, welldaft said:

Only 15 and starring in the Scotland under 17’s. No wonder there are rumours of Rangers and English Premiership clubs sniffing about. 

If does not just affect Motherwell as we know from Gilmour joining Chelsea and Doakes going from Celtic to Liverpool recently.

My point is this. Is there any point of having an Academy ? Will we ever have another Turnbull on our hands ? Most young players with promise leave by the time they are 16/17 such as McAlear and McKinstry. Sure we get a few hundred 000. But if Rice and Miller are the real deal they could be worth £millions in a few years time

The short answer is yes, absolutely.

It's obviously frustrating if we don't see our best youths play for us before we leave. But:

- there is all kinds of cash available for running a proper academy. I forget the what, why, when etc but it's in the accounts

- producing good players who get moves that are probably life-altering at 15/16, if not setting them up for life, is a brilliant recruitment advert for the level below them to join us

- some players will choose to hang around for the first team path, others will develop a little later

- having a Maguire, Cornelius etc in the squad (on peanuts, at least at first) saves wages that would go to a senior back-up

- we're protected to an extent by the rules, should McKinstry, McAlear etc eventually go for big bucks we get a percentage

The trend of big clubs hoovering up even more talent than usual is highly annoying but we should still be funding the academy as much as possible.

[Casagolda]

10 hours ago, welldaft said:

My point is this. Is there any point of having an Academy ? Will we ever have another Turnbull on our hands ? Most young players with promise leave by the time they are 16/17 such as McAlear and McKinstry. Sure we get a few hundred 000. But if Rice and Miller are the real deal they could be worth £millions in a few years time

Could being the key word though. 

They could be worth millions. They could be playing for East Fife like Jamie Semple.   Who I’m sure was being chased by hundreds of clubs and playing for our U20’s when he was only 14. By the time he was 20 he was released having only made half a dozen or so first team appearances. 

I’m sure between Turnbull, Campbell Scott, Hastie, McKinstry and MacLear the club must have made about 5m plus over the last few years. Not to mention what we could make in the future or what the first few contributed to the first team.

As above, even this season Cornelius is coming onto a game and currently establishing himself as a regular. While Maguire has recently signed a new deal and shown at worst that he’s a decent squad player at this level. Johnston seems to be doing well on loan as well and will surely be in the first team mix for next season etc.  

I think people get too worked up about sensationalist articles about teenage wonder kids. It can go either way for a multitude of reasons at that age, a lot of which are out with the clubs control. What we can control, the club seems to do a pretty good job of and going by recent years they seem to get a lot more right than they get wrong in that department. 

[capt_oats]

Both @Handsome_Devil and @Casagolda have pretty much covered it but for my 2c:

I seem to remember it being mentioned by either Craigan or Ross (maybe both) that the hope with each "cycle" was that we'd see maybe a few break into the first team with the hope that one or two develop even further.

The group that gave us Turnbull, Campbell, Scott, Hastie et al was probably the exception rather than the rule. In that respect if we get a Cornelius establishing himself as a first team player in the same way Campbell did but it means we lose a McKinstry before they get to kick a baw then while it's 100% annoying it probably means the Academy is functioning as the club would anticipate - I doubt the club expect 4 or 5 Academy players to be bounced into the first team every summer although the constant struggle to keep kids at the club is no doubt a frustration.

It's mentioned in the posts above but if we're talking about the 'point' of the Academy then there are degrees of how you interpret that.

We're developing players for the first team to varying degrees (could we afford to "buy" a Turnbull or a Campbell? Absolutely not), there's the community aspect of giving players a platform and allowing them to develop their career if not at Motherwell then potentially at other levels and finally there's the fact that we can monetise the academy either through grants and funding.

Fwiw, Here's the Youth Cup winning team and additional 'products of the Motherwell Academy' plus the number of games played and where they moved to, most of them still seem to be kicking a baw (apologies to anyone I've missed):

Allan Campbell - 160 games (signed for Luton Town)
Chris Cadden (boooo) - 139 games (signed for Columbus Crew)
Barry Maguire - 57 games
James Scott - 42 games (signed for Hull)
David Turnbull - 41 games (signed for Celtic)
Dominic Thomas - 39 games (signed for Kilmarnock)
Ross Maclean - 22 games (signed for Falkirk)
Jack McMillan - 20 games (signed for Livingston)
Jake Hastie - 18 games (signed for Rangers) (+ 17 games - loan)
Ben Hall - 18 games (signed for Brighton)
David Ferguson - 16 games (signed for Ayr United)
Adam Livingstone - 12 games (signed for Cove Rangers)
Luke Watt - 10 games (signed for NV Novigrad)
Jamie Semple - 8 games (signed for East Fife)
Dean Cornelius - 7 games
Dylan Mackin - 5 games (signed for Livingston)
Max Johnston - 2 games
David Devine - 1 game
Stuart McKinstry - 0 games (signed for Leeds United)
Reece McAlear - 0 games (signed for Norwich City)
Brett Long - 0 games (signed for Dundee United)
Robbie Leitch - 0 games (signed for Burnley)
Dylan Falconer - 0 games (n/a)
PJ Morrison - 0 games

That said, whether it's been a conscious decision by the club or it's just been a result of the way things are post-pandemic in Scottish football it feels like there's less visibility with the Academy stuff beyond the little bits of #content we've seen or socials posts about Miller, Rice and Johnston getting international call-ups for the age groups or the video packages about Cornelius and Johnston.

The club don't cover the Youth levels through official channels and the fact that the Reserve league has been mothballed means there's a bit of a vacuum in the space below first team level compared to what we used to see when we were getting u20 Dev league highlights up via the YouTube on a weekly basis.

I suppose the upshot of that is that a disconnect can develop whereby if we're not seeing/hearing about these players then the assumption is that they're either being ignored by the management or they're not there.

Edited April 7, 2022 by capt_oats