Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

58 minutes ago, Archie McSquackle said:

Watt's still under contract at United, isn't he? Back there in the summer unless they pay him lots of money to go away. 

He still has another 2 seasons on his deal at united.

 

[Swello]

6 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

He still has another 2 seasons on his deal at united.

 

That is actually mental given the guy's track record. Taking Watt from us killed us for the 2nd half of that season and Utd finished 1 place above us but the fact is that we finished 5th and got into Europe regardless, which is something that will always be a very good season for us.

Utd have been running a huge deficit for the past few years and the idea that they could still be paying Tony Watt a relative fortune as a Championship club after the parachute payment has evaporated is symptomatic of just how badly a decent club can be run if you try hard enough.

[eliphas]

5 hours ago, Swello said:

That is actually mental given the guy's track record. Taking Watt from us killed us for the 2nd half of that season and Utd finished 1 place above us but the fact is that we finished 5th and got into Europe regardless, which is something that will always be a very good season for us.

Utd have been running a huge deficit for the past few years and the idea that they could still be paying Tony Watt a relative fortune as a Championship club after the parachute payment has evaporated is symptomatic of just how badly a decent club can be run if you try hard enough.

I'd be surprised if Utd don't have relegation release clauses within most/all of their contacts. 

Maybe it's what they actually need to get out the mess they are in.

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, eliphas said:

I'd be surprised if Utd don't have relegation release clauses within most/all of their contacts. 

Maybe it's what they actually need to get out the mess they are in.

Dunno...I think the relegation as fresh start theory works for someone with the resources of Hearts, borderline Hibs but not convinced it works much lower down the food chain, it at least is far from guaranteed.

It'll certainly get the fans who remain pumped up again, which is a plus, but I think recovering from relegation is much harder on a long-term basis than folk realise.

United survived solidly enough on their season back but were grim enough to chase the manager. They were then fourth (!) as best of the rotten rest, chase another manager and now this season.

Killie came back first time of asking and rather than return to the middle tableness their size suggests, are in an epic survival battle and their poty is the pitch.

If United go down, given their financial situation, it could (not saying will, it obviously depends) get very hairy, very quickly.

[Swello]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Killie came back first time of asking and rather than return to the middle tableness their size suggests, are in an epic survival battle and their poty is the pitch.

Killie are always a good barometer as they the closest thing to us (along with St Mirren) and the fact that they bounced straight back up was a brilliant achievement as that league is a black hole that's seen peer clubs of ours like Dunfermline and Falkirk swallowed up. But the point you make is right - the damage done to them with even 1 season down there has meant that they've now got (IMO) the poorest first eleven (and probably squad) in the league and they effectively need to re-establish themselves despite being a very long standing top tier team previously.

Looking at the damage relegation does is enough for me to chuck every "going to some different grounds would be great" or "chance to clear out the dead wood" take straight into the bin.

[Handsome_Devil]

26 minutes ago, Swello said:

Killie are always a good barometer as they the closest thing to us (along with St Mirren) and the fact that they bounced straight back up was a brilliant achievement as that league is a black hole that's seen peer clubs of ours like Dunfermline and Falkirk swallowed up. But the point you make is right - the damage done to them with even 1 season down there has meant that they've now got (IMO) the poorest first eleven (and probably squad) in the league and they effectively need to re-establish themselves despite being a very long standing top tier team previously.

Looking at the damage relegation does is enough for me to chuck every "going to some different grounds would be great" or "chance to clear out the dead wood" take straight into the bin.

The level of the Championship varies hugely from time to time (not unreasonably, just look at the top-flight!).

And after a few seasons when going down would have meant an extended stay, it is now at such a level I was confident (in February) we'd rebuild and win it in 2024 - however, the harder part of re-establishing ourselves would be still to come.

As for the different grounds, it's taking a positive from a bad situation...I don't know anyone who'd volunteer for it.

[well fan for life]

I am very relieved we turned it around. I feared we were nailed on to go down earlier in the year and with our current off-the-field situation where we don't have anyone in charge of the club I did wonder if that would have doomed us to a long stint in the Championship. 

Happy to wait on some decent cup draws to see new stadiums. 

[Alanos]

from BBC
 

Motherwell v Ross County: Pick of the statspublished at 12:10 18 May

12:10 18 May

IMAGE SOURCE, BBC SPORT

• Motherwell's Blair Spittal has provided four assists for Kevin van Veen in the Scottish Premiership this season – no player has assisted a team-mate more often this term.

• Ross County have won their last two league games, as many as they had in their previous 10 (D1 L7). They last won three in a row in March 2022, which included an away win against Motherwell.

• Motherwell are looking to win three consecutive Premiership games while keeping a clean sheet each time for the first time since May 2021.

• Just one of the last 14 league matches between Motherwell and Ross County have been drawn (8 Motherwell wins, 5 Ross County), although it was the last such match at Fir Park (1-1 in January).

• Motherwell have won three of their last four league meetings with Ross County (D1), after having lost three of their previous four beforehand (W1).

1. Finishing seventh 'massive' for Motherwell finances, says Kettlewellpublished at 10:59 18 May

   10:59 18 May

   Motherwell boss Stuart Kettlewell says finishing top of the Premiership’s bottom half would be a “huge” boost to his budget.

   The seventh-place Steelmen are a point clear of Livingston with three matches left, starting with Ross County's visit to Fir Park on Saturday.

   “It helps the football club, it’s as simple as that. If we can hopefully cement our league placing it is massive for us, it is huge,” said Kettlewell.

   “There isn’t an endless supply of money. So it’s about us being as proactive as we can with our business, our placings in the league.

   “There’s only a couple of ways a club can improve the finance they bring in – you either sell a player, you go on a cup run, or you have a good league placing.

   “You want to freshen up the squad and put your own stamp on it, but the ability to do that can be limited at times, so the more I can bring in with a league placing, that helps those scenarios.”

   Kettlewell is braced for a “bruising encounter” against his former club County as Motherwell seek to continue their fine form with a third straight win.

   “We’re going to face a County side that are off the back of a couple of good victories and I can see it being a really tough, physical game,” he added.

   “You look at the top of the form table and that’s a huge incentive for us.

   “You look at the form table over the last six games and we sit top of that just now, along with Aberdeen and Celtic, which is a huge achievement at this stage for our club.

   “I want to add to that and the players have a real aspiration to do so as well. Just finish the season as best we possibly can.”

    

   Kettlewell on not easing off, McGinley return & Johnston futurepublished at 09:51 18 May

   09:51 18 May

   Scott Mullen, BBC Sport Scotland

   Stuart Kettlewell has been speaking to the media before Motherwell's Premiership game with Ross County this weekend.

   Here are the key lines from the Fir Park boss:

    

   Motherwell's form gives hope for next season and Kettlewell believes his side can still get better.

   They are still going to be competitive in the three remaining games despite being safe. Finishing seventh is financially important to the club.

   He is delighted to have Nathan McGinley back in light training. The defender has been out for 14 months and got a round of applause from players when he returned, but still has a long way to go. 

   The club has made its best offer to Max Johnston and there’s no issues over the fact he is yet to decide his future.

   Kettlewell can't confirm or deny reports Johnston has visited Norwich's training ground, but says he would have expected to be informed by the player or his agent if it was true.

[Desp]

4 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

If United go down, given their financial situation, it could (not saying will, it obviously depends) get very hairy, very quickly.

[capt_oats]

2 hours ago, well fan for life said:

I am very relieved we turned it around. I feared we were nailed on to go down earlier in the year and with our current off-the-field situation where we don't have anyone in charge of the club I did wonder if that would have doomed us to a long stint in the Championship. 

Happy to wait on some decent cup draws to see new stadiums. 

Add me to the list of those who thought we were absolute fucking toast this season.

I've mentioned it before but I genuinely hope that everyone involved in whatever the f**k happened last summer has had a word with themselves because let's face it - it's taken a frankly ludicrous run of form to dig us out of the hole we'd got ourselves into.

That said, I'll not lie, the more the dust has settled now we're actually safe I've kind of wondered what our season would have looked like if we hadn't just chucked everything we'd learned about appointing managers over the last 20 odd years out the window and just stuck with the blueprint of McGhee, Brown, McCall, Robinson, Alexander types instead of setting it on fire.

Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt that the decisions that were made were done so in good faith but the further we get from the first half of this season the more mental it seems.

Going back to the interview Alexander gave prior to the Hearts game on Sky I was interested to hear him talk about the budget:

Quote

"We had only brought three players in because of the budget constraints we were under, we had invested in a brand new pitch, for the long-term benefit of the club, and that's the issue you'll always have at Motherwell, the previous manager had it, the next manager will have it, that it's not just winning games you have to tick a lot of other boxes."

"The club, and the board, are very aware of the survival of Motherwell, over the long term and not just one season. I was informed that was what was going to happen with the pitch, and I had no problems with it. It was described to me when I first took on the job, that there were a lot of difficulties with the job and we had to tick a lot of boxes and keep Motherwell as a sustainable club for the long term and that's why the decision was made. We brought in three free transfers before the Sligo games because that's what the budget at the time was showing and I was well aware of that."

Link

I mean, fair comment - a lot of people were making assumptions about whether or not he had had his budget cut and what that *meant* in terms of backing but equally looking at Kieran Maguire's comments on our accounts in his Price Of Football Twitter feed I wonder if his budget "constraint" was simply a case of the board saying "you're not getting to spend £500k on players Graham...we're putting the money into the pitch. Make do with free transfers like every other Motherwell manager".

Edited May 19, 2023 by capt_oats

[Busta Nut]

For those who understand those things. What's the attached doc and how much credibility does it hold?

 

[Swello]

7 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

For those who understand those things. What's the attached doc and how much credibility does it hold?

 

It's our actual accounts - so as credible as it gets.

[Handsome_Devil]

50 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

I've mentioned it before but I genuinely hope that everyone involved in whatever the f**k happened last summer has had a word with themselves because let's face it - it's taken a frankly ludicrous run of form to dig us out of the hole we'd got ourselves into.

 

I mean, fair comment - a lot of people were making assumptions about whether or not he had had his budget cut and what that *meant* in terms of backing but equally looking at Kieran Maguire's comments on our accounts in his Price Of Football Twitter feed I wonder if his budget "constraint" was simply a case of the board saying "you're not getting to spend £500k on players Graham...we're putting the money into the pitch. Make do with free transfers like every other Motherwell manager".

Presumably a lot of that transfer expense was Kelly (so not Alexander) but SSJ and Slattery presumably come under his ownership...so rather than a 'you don't have any money', it was maybe 'you spent this year's budget last year given the new long-term contract approach'. But who knows.

Re last summer, completely agree, and like you the more I think about it the more I want to pound the wall.

No because it went wrong - it was always going to go wrong! - but for the life of me I can't see what 'winning' would have been for the neither backing or sacking plan.

If we'd beat Sligo, you couldn't have sacked Alexander immediately, so if you're giving him the window it's then plus a wee while to let the players settle. Did we assume he could turn it round with half backing? Or that we could be shit till November and a replacement would turn it round?

Alternatively we lose to Sligo, as happened, but then there was no plan in place to get a manager and, without relitigating, we ended up with a Hobson's choice which again was doomed to failure.

I'd like our board freshened up but I'm actually very tolerant of errors we make - it's nearly always tough choices made with the best if intentions.

Last summer was a total shitshow however and what's worse is anyone thinking about it, back in May, could see within 10 minutes that neither sticking or twisting on the manager was only going to end in disaster. I would love, in a few years, for Flow or anyone else to explain the rationale because I sure as f**k can't even see a theory for success there.

It's an absolute miracle we are where we are now and we will almost certainly never be so lucky again. 

[capt_oats]

14 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Presumably a lot of that transfer expense was Kelly (so not Alexander) but SSJ and Slattery presumably come under his ownership...so rather than a 'you don't have any money', it was maybe 'you spent this year's budget last year given the new long-term contract approach'. But who knows.

Yeah, it's not difficult to see where the number comes from.

The following were under contract at other clubs when we signed them:

• Liam Kelly (QPR)
• Callum Slattery (Southampton)
• Juhani Ojala (Vejle)
• Sondre Solholm Johansen (Mjøndalen)
• Joe Efford (Waasland-Beveren)
• Jordan Roberts (Hearts)

We also had a development fee for Ross Tierney (and maybe Robbie Mahon?).

At least 7 potential fees there. Some would presumably be more nominal than others - did Kelly not have another 2 years on his QPR deal when we signed him? An average of £77k per player coming on the back of a season where we'd posted a £3.5m profit and a contributed to a season where we finished 5th and qualified for Europe.

I mean, don't get me wrong I'm not sure it was necessarily a successful strategy but it could probably have been much worse and I'd hope that the subsequent deal for Sol at least washed its face.

Tbh, kind of related to the James Furlong conversation I wondered whether it's actually more effective to target players in the final year of their contracts and pay nominal/development fees to secure them and just eat that as a cost of doing business than it is to go to free agency players and lose out when it comes to the auction on wages.

Edited May 19, 2023 by capt_oats

[Kapowzer]

25 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Tbh, kind of related to the James Furlong conversation I wondered whether it's actually more effective to target players in the final year of their contracts and pay nominal/development fees to secure them and just eat that as a cost of doing business than it is to go to free agency players and lose out when it comes to the auction on wages.

I think this is an underused and good strategy, take one step back but hopefully two forward. Saying that the going rate for an U21 who’s been somewhere for quite a while is £350-400k? That’s what any of our young guys who left were rumoured to cost their new clubs.

The bigger issue is Max Johnston, he should not have been allowed out on loan before Christmas and used. For context Hammy used Kian Spiers on the opening day. A lot of that comes to Hammy’s dogmatic approach to a back 4 and not looking at who’s in the building unlike his successor.

It is a bit wild reading that we waxed over half a million two summers ago and few have had a go in the same way Leeann gets heat on here.

OK, it was off the back of Turnbull’s sale but barring a miracle I’d say the majority of that is gone for good. That number also doesn’t take into account the additional money paid to guys to see out their rest of their contract and walk. The real cost is way north of £550k

Can anyone see us selling Slattery and Kelly for that amount this summer or in January?

It will be interesting in next years accounts if we get an idea of how much Woolery went to Turkey for. But it will be grouped in with the summers sales and Sol money which as you say is pretty much break even at best.

Edited May 19, 2023 by Kapowzer

[Handsome_Devil]

The money is an interesting one and while it obviously didn't work out as hoped, I'm happy we were willing to try it.

I'm fine spending 'big' money on a goalkeeper. Indeed, I'd have him as our highest earner, and if we don't recoup that in transfer fees no problem - the difference it makes week in week out is enough.

The rest comes into calculated risk and reward...spend a bit to move out of the freebie market and how much more likely are you to do well on and off the pitch?

Most were happy we were attempting to move from the Robinson one-year contract scattergun by paying a bit more for fewer and hopefully better.

The simple maths says buy five guys at 200k, three are fair value, one fails and one properly succeeds, and not only have we probably gained on the pitch we'll probably recoup all our outlay in one fee.

Sadly, as we've seen, the theory is mich easier than the practice of finding these players!

[thisGRAEME]

There's a Well Soc email out around the conference league, btw.

Deadline next week for feedback.

I voted agin it, but do as you please, obvs.

[Kapowzer]

If anyone is for it they need their head read.

[dezz]

Glad to see we’re being consulted on the Conference League, and with sufficient time to actually respond! *cough* VAR *cough*.  
 

I voted against the Conference, and left a very long, very rambling script giving various reasons why the proposal should be fired straight in the bin.  

[ropy]

I voted against simply because there are no stated benefits, are there?