Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[ropy]

3 minutes ago, Al B said:

Suggestion 1 - We have a left back that looks more than decent, and has changed almost every game he's come on in, albeit for about 20 minutes each time. Play him, instead of overlooking him for:

A - an extremely right footed right back, or:

B - Our most effective attacking centre mid.

 

Suggestion 2 - The aforementioned extremely right footed right back, is our best right back, so play him at right back rather than at left back ahead of our only actual good left back.

 

Suggestion 3 - We have a more than decent attacking centre mid who chips in with a few goals. Play him there, rather than shoe-horning him in at left wing-back when the right back who's playing left back ahead of the actual left back, isnlt playing well because he's a right footed right back playing on the left.

 

Suggestion 4 - We have one supporting striker who looks like he can actually finish occasionally. Don't move him back to centre mid halfway through a game.

 

Suggestion 5 - When the aforementioned supporting striker who actually has some finishing ability says in the press that he'd never played centre mid before and had absolutely no idea what he was doing, don't then start him there in the next game.

 

Suggestion 6 - When we have a limited budget, dont spend it on players who are already injured, and then have to sign a 2nd player when you realise they're always injured. Also, maybe try and make sure that this 2nd replacement player isn't also injured.

 

Suggestion 7 - Don't renew the contract of injured strikers that are already in our own treatment room, and then have to bring in someone else as well because they're injured.

 

Suggestion 8 - When you sign this replacement striker, don't pick one that's scored single digit goals in total in his whole career.

Full of suggestions you

[2426255]

Well thanks for the opinions. You guys watch the team every week so you'll know better than me. I am probably a bit more sympathetic to managers - I can remember a few people on the TA board wanted Steve Clarke out the door after Euro-2020, thankfully that didn't happen.

In my opinion I don't think it's going to make a big difference if you replace Stuart Kettlewell with someone else as you'll still have the same general issues that a new manager will have to try and navigate - you might get a bounce or you might not and then you'll just be on the same merry go round and the new guy will frustrate you in the same and different ways. 

 

[Al B]

1 minute ago, ropy said:

Full of suggestions you

Honestly don't understand why we don't just score more goals and let in less goals. It's not rocket surgery.

[ropy]

13 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

Aye, this is why I'm pretty sympathetic to him, and since the middle of this bad, bad run I've been saying we'll be fine if we can tread water and grind out a few wins until January where he'll hopefully have the wherewithal to rectify his mistakes. This is probably what I expected to happen after we took a point at Parkhead but the County game and a lot of the Dundee game was really really poor. For me, he deserves the next game or two but they need to be pretty significant steps in the positive direction in terms of performances and results. A lot of other folk are probably past that point with him and tbf it does sound like he sit a pretty similar tailspin at Ross County that he couldn't get out of.

Sitting in Dingwall, in the cold, one minute in and one goal down, I thought maybe this isn’t happening.  It was Hammell’s St Johnstone game all over again.  Hammell had the opportunity against Raith Rovers to kick start something and failed, Kettlewell has an opportunity against a St Johnstone team who have been largely inconsistent this season and perhaps one last chance against a St Mirren team that have picked up the same number of points as us in the last 5 games.

One win can turn this around.

This likely skeleton team may be the making of him and he will get my full support.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

2 minutes ago, ropy said:

Sitting in Dingwall, in the cold, one minute in and one goal down, I thought maybe this isn’t happening.  It was Hammell’s St Johnstone game all over again.  Hammell had the opportunity against Raith Rovers to kick start something and failed, Kettlewell has an opportunity against a St Johnstone team who have been largely inconsistent this season and perhaps one last chance against a St Mirren team that have picked up the same number of points as us in the last 5 games.

One win can turn this around.

This likely skeleton team may be the making of him and he will get my full support.

St Mirren after this so we may be without Mika soon too, hopefully we can take advantage while he's still here 

[crazylegsjoe_mfc]

There are plenty of things I sympathise with Kettlewell for. The basket case boardroom for one but a lot on the footballing side.

By my reckoning (counting Paton & Obika as players who were here) since the end of last season, we've added 8 first team players and 17 have gone the other way, either permanently or on loan (not including youths who've played the odd game). 

Five of those played when fit, throw into the mix Butcher's injury and Casey only signing when better offers didn't roll in, this left him starting pre season trying to mould 7 players around Kelly, McGinn, Spittal and Obika. I also do have a degree of sympathy that whilst Casey seemed a coup, he's been largely poor and is now out long term. Having to go out and panic sign Shaw when Bair was our only fit striker, only for Wilkinson to return quicker, I feel was harsh on him too. In hindsight, we could've done without the 40 odd minutes Shaw gave us in his absence.

I get there is good reason that we were so frugal in the transfer market this summer, but every time we are in this predicament, we tend to chuck the kitchen sink at it in January. It happened with Baraclough, it happened with Alexander and it happened with Hammell. If Kettlewell doesn't make it until January and he sees a new manager come in and get several new faces, you couldn't help but feel aggrieved. Surely some kind of happy medium is there to be struck.

For all the things I don't sympathise with - see AlB's post.

 

 

[Al B]

Just to add, in all seriousness I really like Stuart Kettlewell. I think in a nutshell it's just down to a few results not going our way, overthinking it and before you know it, it's just snowballed and with every game that goes by without 3 points, the panic increases, you tinker more and more which just gets you further and further away.

There's a huge part of me that feels that one win would be that bucket of cold water in the face that just wakes you up and the clarity comes rushing back. I still think there's a really good side in there somewhere, that's just not joined up at the moment.

Edited December 7, 2023 by Al B

[eliphas]

7 hours ago, capt_oats said:

Ironically doing what he did when he was parachuted in to replace Hammell would be a good start: simplify things, play players in their natural positions in a way that plays to their strengths and focus on being difficult to beat.

Because of the injuries he won't have much choice on Saturday and I think that's a good thing.....and oddly I don't actually think it makes us weaker in the starting 11.

Gent and Spencer at full back which we've all been shouting for. 

SOD, Mugabi and Blaney back 3 I don't actually think is hugely weaker than what we've seen recently. SOD is fine tucked in in a back 3 than on the wing I think personally. Not that I'd really want to play him there. But, rather there than wing back. Many called for Casey to be dropped. Butcher hasn't looked like last season's Butcher yet. So that's....no worse than what we had pretty much I'd argue.

Spittal, Slattery and Davor in the middle. Starting only two midfielders can get in the bin.Plenty have called for Davor to do the defensive job. It seems...more balanced potentially than an immobile Butcher in there or Harry Paton trying to be a defensive mid when he's not.

Mika + someone up front.

I mean....unless everyone is mentally broken it might go alright. The bench is another story 

I feel for Kettlewell to an extent but he's created a lot of this himself too. Plus, we only played St Johnstone a minute ago it seems. Weird.

Edited December 8, 2023 by eliphas

[2426255]

6 hours ago, Al B said:

Suggestion 1 - We have a left back that looks more than decent, and has changed almost every game he's come on in, albeit for about 20 minutes each time. Play him, instead of overlooking him for:

A - an extremely right footed right back, or:

B - Our most effective attacking centre mid.

 

Suggestion 2 - The aforementioned extremely right footed right back who Kettlewell plays at left back, is our best right back, so play him at right back rather than at left back ahead of our only actual good left back.

 

Suggestion 3 - We have a more than decent attacking centre mid who chips in with a few goals. Play him there, rather than shoe-horning him in at left wing-back when the right back who's playing left back ahead of the actual left back, isnt playing well because he's a right footed right back playing on the left.

 

Suggestion 4 - We have one supporting striker who looks like he can actually finish occasionally. Don't move him back to centre mid halfway through a game.

 

Suggestion 5 - When the aforementioned supporting striker who actually has some finishing ability says in the press that he'd never played centre mid before and had absolutely no idea what he was doing, don't then start him there in the next game.

Why do you think he is making these decisions? Assuming he isn't trying to get himself fired which I think is a logical starting point then what could the reasons be or have you's already arrived at the conclusion he's trying to be too clever/too stubborn?

I find with fans it's mostly about results in the sense that:  if he's trying to think out the box and not getting results he's being too clever/overthinking and should play round pegs in round holes. If he's playing round pegs in round holes and not getting results he's been found out and doesn't have a plan-b kind of rhetoric. We've seen at Scotland playing players out of position isn't always a problem and can be innovative (Tierney, McTominay or Christie among others) although it can sometimes be viewed as unsuccessful (Robertson at RWB, McTominay at CB) especially if results aren't coming.

[RandomGuy.]

7 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Well thanks for the opinions. You guys watch the team every week so you'll know better than me. I am probably a bit more sympathetic to managers - I can remember a few people on the TA board wanted Steve Clarke out the door after Euro-2020, thankfully that didn't happen.

Worth remembering if an International manager flops, hes not costing a business millions of pounds and likely seeing 10+ people lose their livelihood. 

Kettlewell isnt managing some u18 club with no consequences for his failings.

Managers deserve more time, but they also dont deserve an endless amount of rope either. Hes showing all the signs of someone whos both out of (sensible) ideas and who the players have completely lost faith it. I cant think of a single manager whos turned things around from the position hes in.

[2426255]

6 minutes ago, RandomGuy. said:

Worth remembering if an International manager flops, hes not costing a business millions of pounds and likely seeing 10+ people lose their livelihood. 

Kettlewell isnt managing some u18 club with no consequences for his failings.

Managers deserve more time, but they also dont deserve an endless amount of rope either. Hes showing all the signs of someone whos both out of (sensible) ideas and who the players have completely lost faith it. I cant think of a single manager whos turned things around from the position hes in.

That's fine, that's your view - no issue with that. I don't quite see it like that. As I said before I'm not on here for an argument, I came on this thread by accident and it caught my interest and wanted to know what the Motherwell fans thoughts were. 

[ropy]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

Why do you think he is making these decisions? Assuming he isn't trying to get himself fired which I think is a logical starting point then what could the reasons be or have you's already arrived at the conclusion he's trying to be too clever/too stubborn?

I find with fans it's mostly about results in the sense that:  if he's trying to think out the box and not getting results he's being too clever/overthinking and should play round pegs in round holes. If he's playing round pegs in round holes and not getting results he's been found out and doesn't have a plan-b kind of rhetoric. We've seen at Scotland playing players out of position isn't always a problem and can be innovative (Tierney, McTominay or Christie among others) although it can sometimes be viewed as unsuccessful (Robertson at RWB, McTominay at CB) especially if results aren't coming.

Overthinking it is how I have described the situation from a few games back.  Plan-B has usually been better than Plan-A as can be seen from the comeback results and late goals but it usually involves just chucking on any senior player that has been left on the bench.  Even on Tuesday we only lost the second half 1-0.

[capt_oats]

3 hours ago, 2426255 said:

Why do you think he is making these decisions? Assuming he isn't trying to get himself fired which I think is a logical starting point then what could the reasons be or have you's already arrived at the conclusion he's trying to be too clever/too stubborn?

I mean that’s really just inviting speculation since none of us actually know why he’s making these decisions - we’re just stood on the sidelines looking perplexed.

Despite Kettlewell’s fondness for talking and the 20 odd minute press conferences I don’t think any of the journos covering Motherwell have ever explicitly asked him “Stuart, why the f**k are you still playing a young right back out of position at left wing back rather than the actual left wing back you’re invariably having to chuck on with 20 mins to go when you’re losing who seems to create chances and goals?”.

Tbh, I’d imagine the honest answer would be some wooly idea that the players he’s not giving starts to - including our diminutive North Macedonian international - need to show more in training or whatever.

And that’s fine…maybe they do but if you’re a Motherwell manager then the entire job is getting the best out of the players you have available so you don’t really get to have it both ways - you don’t get to blame “budget” while you’re pointedly refusing to use players you signed in preference of sticking with players who are either underperforming or being used in such a way that it’s limiting them.

Ultimately I’d say the bulk of the Motherwell posters on here are fairly rational save the one or two handwringing types who have us getting relegated if we lose a game (any game). They’re also broadly in a demographic who for the most part have never known the club as anything other than a top flight team (I’m one of those) - 39 consecutive seasons. We’re not a club who have habitually gone on 12 game winless runs (until recently) - so there’s that expectation but there’s also the experience - we’ve been through a fair number of managers in that time and as a result there’s generally a steer as to when a manager has lost it and what the signs are.

As others have suggested the performance on Tuesday in Dingwall said a lot.

It’s telling that most have just skipped past the bargaining, denial and anger stages and went straight to acceptance with Kettlwell.

Edited December 8, 2023 by capt_oats

[Swello]

I'm laughing at the idea that Motherwell supporters don't think about budgets and injuries when every Motherwell manager in the last 30+ years has talked about nothing else  We know in technical terms that our budget ranges from "one of the lowest in the division" to "we can't compete with the big boys" and all the way up to "we have to cut our cloth". We fucking get it.

The reality is that our budget is comparable to clubs that you would expect it to be (and has been enough for 40 years of top flight) - but it needs to be well spent which obviously is not going to happen every year. This is one of those years where value for money isn't there and that has been badly exposed because of injuries, suspensions and fever dream team selections.

I gave up on the pressers earlier in the season and even if the manager turns things round (which I would genuinely love to see), ah'll no be back.

[well fan for life]

Slattery drawing the short straw getting this presser. Take it he turned up late for training or something. 

[Handsome_Devil]

It just occurred to me it'll be a right laugh on this place when Gent starts tomorrow and is utter horseshit.

[ropy]

12 minutes ago, well fan for life said:

Slattery drawing the short straw getting this presser. Take it he turned up late for training or something. 

That’s a £25 fine

[ropy]

12 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

It just occurred to me it'll be a right laugh on this place when Gent starts tomorrow and is utter horseshit.

See also, Davor.

[well fan for life]

17 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

It just occurred to me it'll be a right laugh on this place when Gent starts tomorrow and is utter horseshit.

I've gone through acceptance and am now treating all of this as a great big laugh tbh. 

['WellDel]

16 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

It just occurred to me it'll be a right laugh on this place when Gent starts tomorrow and is utter horseshit.

 

3 minutes ago, ropy said:

See also, Davor. 

Can two guys who haven't started games all season be expected to come straight in, be perfect performers and not be blowing out their holes by the 70th minute? Of course not, but it won't stop a certain element of the support expecting it.

I've already stated that I think it's already gone for Kettlewell, but I'd be fully behind these guys getting their chance(looks like there's going to be little option anyway) and having as close to a full team playing in their strongest positions as possible, but I won't expect miracles in their first full 90's.

All rationale has long since gone out the window for many though, and I wouldn't put it past them getting pelters and things turning toxic pretty quickly if things go half as badly as they did on Tuesday night.