Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Swello]

5 minutes ago, Widge said:

As mad as this is, you’re not wrong. 5 days a week saints have 2/3 wakes and get togethers after funerals in the suites. I don’t know how much it costs, but it does start to fairly add up I’m sure. As RG says, we’re not all of a sudden getting bankrolled by some multi millionaire, or at least I wouldn’t imagine so, so our budget for next year will once again be getting slashed. 

The reason I know it is that one of our directors actually mentioned it during an AGM - he was basically using St Johnstone as an example of a club that make the most of the stadium to the point that it can subsidise the football side of things (I'm sure it was during a bit of chat about us getting a new stadium/Fir Park being a millstone).

[JayMFC]

2 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

It would seem so.

It obviously depends on the details of what anyone is prepared to offer us but I'm not convinced this is an arms race worth joining.

Investing beyond a club's natural means in Scottish football almost never ends well. McCann was an exception, when Celtic had expectional circumstances, and even he was chased out of Parkhead... anyone else left in triumph?

Off the top of my head only Hearts, Celtic and Rangers achieved enough during the spending periods to remotely justify the bill. As a general rule, the cost ends up being much greater and longer lasting than the success.

As it stands (if you believe the suggestions), there will be a couple of clubs spending a fair bit of money to finish outside the top six next season or two and for those who succeed to only a limited level (Europe without the group stage say or a losing cup final) eventually will find the bill in the post.

We want to spend as much money as we sustainably can and if the city clubs pull away we have little choice but to shrug. Compared to St Mirren, Killie, St J and even Dundee there's a choice though and arguably we're much better scrambling for a season or two and taking advantage of their inevitable downturn than chasing along because everyone else is.

We saw in the late 90s and early 00s, not just to us, what happens here long-term.

I find it incredibly hard to disagree with any of this.

Obviously, from a Well Society perspective, this "arms race" is quite a prevalent topic. I'm sure there'll be an investment update of some degree at the club AGM tomorrow night, following on from Derek Weir's update several weeks ago that there'd been notes of interest, but I'm obviously not going to post any details about any of the actual discussions going on. The Well Society are at the forefront of those discussions though and if any offer was deemed credible enough, then it would require a ballot of Society members for it then to be agreed to.

It's rarely as simple as someone just coming in and throwing some pounds our way though, obviously. When we talk about whether an offer is "credible", for some that will just mean the figures involved. For me though, as someone who's had a bit of trust flung my way by those who voted me onto the Society Board, I think there's far more to what makes an offer "credible", particularly when you are a fan-owned club with a strong sense of community values, and a fan-ownership model that has long proclaimed to be there to protect the club from falling into the wrong hands - there are a lot of "wrong hands" out there looking to invest in football at the moment.

And if someone wants to come in with an investment that is big enough to make a difference, are they likely to do so without looking for some serious input or control in the club? And if the answer is no, what does that mean for fan-ownership?

When you're a fan of a club with a current owner who you're tired or bored of, then it almost becomes an attractive option when there's an investor on the horizon by default I'd imagine. But when you're a fan-owned club, I think there's an element of "be careful what you wish for" to some degree. I have my views on that, that I and others involved in the Well Society have been expressing over the last several weeks, but there is possibly now a case for us actually just asking the members - are you hypothetically prepared to throw fan-ownership in the skip in exchange for investment?

I personally would hope the answer to that is no, particularly as there are a load of very positive things going on behind the scenes at the Society at the moment that will undoubtedly lead to an improved fan-ownership model & experience, and growth to both membership & income. But I think there's a sense that we need to be sure of that particular mandate, to avoid wasting anybody's time - including our own - when it comes to potential investment. 

Edited February 20 by JayMFC

[Dosser1886]

1 hour ago, Swello said:

The reason I know it is that one of our directors actually mentioned it during an AGM - he was basically using St Johnstone as an example of a club that make the most of the stadium to the point that it can subsidise the football side of things (I'm sure it was during a bit of chat about us getting a new stadium/Fir Park being a millstone).

Another reason to move to Ravenscraig and corner the lurative post Holytown Crematorium market.

[MurrayWell]

1 hour ago, JayMFC said:

When you're a fan of a club with a current owner who you're tired or bored of, then it almost becomes an attractive option when there's an investor on the horizon by default I'd imagine. But when you're a fan-owned club, I think there's an element of "be careful what you wish for" to some degree. I have my views on that, that I and others involved in the Well Society have been expressing over the last several weeks, but there is possibly now a case for us actually just asking the members - are you hypothetically prepared to throw fan-ownership in the skip in exchange for investment?

I personally would hope the answer to that is no, particularly as there are a load of very positive things going on behind the scenes at the Society at the moment that will undoubtedly lead to an improved fan-ownership model & experience, and growth to both membership & income. But I think there's a sense that we need to be sure of that particular mandate, to avoid wasting anybody's time - including our own - when it comes to potential investment. 

This for me is the key to it all, I think it's pure fantasy to expect someone to just go "here is millions of pounds just because I like your club's story" without them looking to have control, or at least some level of control. 

While the thought of having investment and a bit of a cash injection is appealing, it has to be right for the club long term, not just so we can be more competitive for a short period of time, until someone gets bored. 

I know it's probably investment we could only dream of, but the Wrexham situation is interesting. They were fan owned before Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney bought them and it required votes to go through, much like what you're saying here. From what I've seen, their intentions look to be good and, let's face it, they are clearly making money from sponsorships, documentary and their other businesses being involved in commercial deals with the club, they also have their own PR to think about that other investors might not care about. On top of that they do seem to genuinely have a connection with the club and town, but given what we've seen across football investment, I think it's fair to say this situation is the exception, not the rule. The dream is probably the 50+1 Bundesliga model where fans stay in control but investors have a say (simplifying here as there may be other layers to it with RB Leipzig etc), whether or not this is actually possible in the SPFL is another matter. 

As Jay says, there are loads of folk looking to invest in football at the moment who don't have good intentions, as exciting as any potential investment might be, it's worth remembering this. 

[thisGRAEME]

4 minutes ago, MurrayWell said:

I know it's probably investment we could only dream of, but the Wrexham situation is interesting. They were fan owned before Ryan Reynolds and Rob McElhenney bought them and it required votes to go through, much like what you're saying here. From what I've seen, their intentions look to be good and, let's face it, they are clearly making money from sponsorships, documentary and their other businesses being involved in commercial deals with the club, they also have their own PR to think about that other investors might not care about. On top of that they do seem to genuinely have a connection with the club and town, but given what we've seen across football investment, I think it's fair to say this situation is the exception, not the rule.

Pardon my absolute cynicism for a minute, but honestly I see this running out of road somewhere in the next few years, and then what? 

Burning a bit of cash to get out of the National League, and even League 2 is very, very different to the money required to get into and more specifically out of the Championship and if you're no longer winning but instead going for a slog to finish 12th for the third season in a row. Salford and the Class of '92 mob found similar that money goes so far, but then you need... LOADS of money.

Might be me, but I'm not sure that's a thrilling series. I just find the whole thing a bit cynical, and ultimately does damage to the pyramid as a whole when they're chucking mental wages at guys playing below their level to move up. Gretna/Kelty/Darvel, take your pick for a Scottish comparison, just with better PR.

[MurrayWell]

11 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Pardon my absolute cynicism for a minute, but honestly I see this running out of road somewhere in the next few years, and then what? 

Burning a bit of cash to get out of the National League, and even League 2 is very, very different to the money required to get into and more specifically out of the Championship and if you're no longer winning but instead going for a slog to finish 12th for the third season in a row. Salford and the Class of '92 mob found similar that money goes so far, but then you need... LOADS of money.

Might be me, but I'm not sure that's a thrilling series. I just find the whole thing a bit cynical, and ultimately does damage to the pyramid as a whole when they're chucking mental wages at guys playing below their level to move up. Gretna/Kelty/Darvel, take your pick for a Scottish comparison, just with better PR.

I don't think that's cynical at all really, while I think they do seem to have a connection with the community now, they obviously did see the value in getting involved for their own commercial ventures. Judging by the series, all of their brands are involved in commercial deals in some way and I'm sure I read something that the sponsorship they had with TikTok basically offset all of their initial investment, so I don't think it's all purely out of the goodness of their hearts. Aviation Gin has probably never been more popular in Wales.

They do seem like decent enough blokes who wouldn't actively do the club and community wrong, again from what we've seen from a documentary they produce. But as you say, what happens if/when they decide it's no longer for them? 

Edited February 20 by MurrayWell

[Busta Nut]

well while we're being cynical, I am not buy that this american lot are interested in funerals and 7 a side rather than the main aspect of the St Johnstone business. 

That's dogshit man.

Edited February 20 by Busta Nut

[thisGRAEME]

17 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

well while we're being cynical, I am not buy that this american lot are interested in funerals and 7 a side rather than the main aspect of the St Johnstone business. 

That's dogshit man.

Looking forward to visiting the new St. Johnstone stadium in Methven.

[Jamie_B]

4 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Looking forward to visiting the new St. Johnstone stadium in Methven.

Oooh Methven do you know what that's worth? Ooooh Methven is a place near Perth...

I have nothing much to contribute to any discussion here other than that line.

Actually, tbh it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the big issue around any deal for Saints is the land the ground sits on. 40 years ago it was basically farmland. Now the city of Perth surrounds it in basically all directions and it is brilliantly placed for connections to the main road network etc. It must be worth a fortune for housebuilding etc.

The question is where do you build a new stadium if you do go down that route and how narrow would the profit margin be if you had to build a new stadium elsewhere to accommodate it. There is an empty bit of land - some old railway yards/sidings - about 3/4 of a mile closer to the centre of town that would theoretically be an OK location but that is pretty well boxed in on all sides by housing/commercial property. Beyond that you'd almost certainly be out of town completely.

[thisGRAEME]

1 minute ago, Jamie_B said:

Oooh Methven do you know what that's worth? Ooooh Methven is a place near Perth...

I have nothing much to contribute to any discussion here other than that line.

Actually, tbh it wouldn't surprise me one bit if the big issue around any deal for Saints is the land the ground sits on. 40 years ago it was basically farmland. Now the city of Perth surrounds it in basically all directions and it is brilliantly placed for connections to the main road network etc. It must be worth a fortune for housebuilding etc.

The question is where do you build a new stadium if you do go down that route and how narrow would the profit margin be if you had to build a new stadium elsewhere to accommodate it. There is an empty bit of land - some old railway yards/sidings - about 3/4 of a mile closer to the centre of town that would theoretically be an OK location but that is pretty well boxed in on all sides by housing/commercial property. Beyond that you'd almost certainly be out of town completely.

Yep, I had assumed the plan was basically:

Find another friendly farmer, build a new one, wait for the town to just about be around the stadium, do it again!

[Jamie_B]

6 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Yep, I had assumed the plan was basically:

Find another friendly farmer, build a new one, wait for the town to just about be around the stadium, do it again!

I want the Stevie May Memorial Thunderdome built on the park right beside the train station or I riot.

[Handsome_Devil]

1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

well while we're being cynical, I am not buy that this american lot are interested in funerals and 7 a side rather than the main aspect of the St Johnstone business. 

That's dogshit man.

Time will tell.

It's obviously very hard to judge how much football clubs are worth but you can certainly make a case for Scottish clubs being undervalued compared to their potential.

The usual problems, caveats etc apply but as much as we - myself included - parrot there's no money to be made here, that's arguably an over-simplification.

To say I'm looking forward to the AGM would be an exaggeration but I'm certainly very curious to hear the reports from those there.

Edited February 20 by Handsome_Devil

[capt_oats]

33 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

To say I'm looking forward to the AGM would be an exaggeration but I'm certainly very curious to hear the reports from those there.

Looking forward is a stretch but I'm definitely interested to see what's going to be covered as I get the impression that with McMahon having stated his intention to step down and Weir being clear that he had no intention of being interim this long in the first place there's probably far less tolerance towards them for the sort of flannelling and kicking the can down the road that we've heard before.

They bought themselves a bit of time with those updates in January but given the sort of timelines they've set themselves there really has to be some sort of concrete progress now (IMO).

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, Busta Nut said:

well while we're being cynical, I am not buy that this american lot are interested in funerals and 7 a side rather than the main aspect of the St Johnstone business. 

In terms of making money for themselves, which is presumably the aim, then it makes a lot of sense that theyd almost split it all in two and take more from the business side and put less of that into the football side.

That side of things wont be affected regardless of what division we play in.

[Handsome_Devil]

3 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

They bought themselves a bit of time with those updates in January but given the sort of timelines they've set themselves there really has to be some sort of concrete progress now (IMO).

Yeah...the investment thing can understandably take time, so while I expect an update, you wouldn't be massively surprised if details are scant if we're mainly processing people who reacted to the January appeal.

The CEO a different matter though... you could even argue that if they don't basically have a candidate lined up by now it's time to give someone else a shot at getting it done.

[capt_oats]

18 minutes ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Yeah...the investment thing can understandably take time, so while I expect an update, you wouldn't be massively surprised if details are scant if we're mainly processing people who reacted to the January appeal.

The CEO a different matter though... you could even argue that if they don't basically have a candidate lined up by now it's time to give someone else a shot at getting it done.

Yeah, I mean I don’t expect to pitch up tomorrow and there be a big bag of money on the table but it’s been brought up at previous AGMs and IIRC McMahon conceded that it was something they’d let slip.

Given it’s something that they’ve put on the agenda so it’s not unreasonable to ask how it’s developed.

Bearing in mind McMahon felt he had to point out that the video wasn’t the only part of the project I’m curious to hear how they’ve got on with whatever else they were working on…

Agree completely re: the CEO, ideally you’d be expecting it to be announced they have somehow set to go.

If not then…fucking hell lads.

Edited February 20 by capt_oats

[Handsome_Devil]

27 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Bearing in mind McMahon felt he had to point out that the video wasn’t the only part of the project I’m curious to hear how they’ve got on with whatever else they were working on…

This is perhaps unfair but I wonder if, sometimes, the board(s) throw out convenient broad answers to a question for a quick solution knowing they are unlikely to be tested on it.

The seeking investment thing is a case in point but there have been others - due to my own bias I took particular interest when it was mentioned we were looking at a couple of German models (one of which was insane, the other ideal) to see what we could learn. Nothing apparently - which is fine, perhaps it just didn't work - but it going completely off the radar is just annoying.

[eliphas]

The people sitting on the board over the last 10 years or so, and Alan Burrows as CEO, early on more so in his case, were really quite bad for giving out nuggets of strategic type information and then not following up on them/letting them fade away when nothing happened. 

I'm sure it always came from a good place of wanting to let fans know we were doing things but more often than not it ended up with no real updates until someone asked on Twitter and Alan had to answer them. 

[capt_oats]

 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

 

3-0 up against the Morecambe globetrotters, Walsall must be brilliant