Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Wellin]

36 minutes ago, EK2DK said:

I should start by saying that this will go down as one of the most bizarre weeks I’ve experienced as a Motherwell fan. 
 

There are a few points in recent posts which I’d like to echo, from capt. Oats, David and Handsome Devil. 
 

Firstly, I agree that the Executive Board owe Erik, his advisors, TWS (TM) and Motherwell supporters an apology. 

Whilst I don’t believe Erik’s offer is one of malice or ill intent, he’s trying to get as good a deal for himself as he can, which he’s entitled to do. However, the board are in the process of selling the club down the river with quite frankly woeful negotiations and valuations.

There is absolutely no way that an institutional business with 140 years of history should be sold off to any investor without not only due diligence but also a detailed and meaningful business plan presented to the shareholders. 

Secondly, Erik himself as said he has only 10% of what’s needed to form a meaningful plan. Erik, that is your responsibility to ask that and your responsibility to present that to the 
Shareholders prior to any deal. As it stands, we’ve got some bullet points that with all due respect, I’d expect from anybody freshly graduating with a masters degree in marketing to bring to the table. 
There is absolutely no value to what you have presented. 
You do not plan meaningful investment to bring competitive advantage to the club, there are no cash injections of substance and no discussions regarding your own cash reserves should crisis hit. Your proposal is utterly abhorrent in asking people with cultural and familial ties to relinquish control of a club that has probably been one steady beacon in an area which has underwent deprivation and desolation for decades, to be turned into an investment vehicle and lightly funded experiment.
There is no risk to you in this deal, but there is massive risk to the fans and the club. You can walk away but the supporters cannot or will  not but in an era and area where money has always been traditionally challenging, fans who have put their hands in their pockets month after month are being asked to wipe off that investment on a wing and a prayer that you might be able to do some decent media deals.

I have seen nothing to suggest that you bring any meaningful value to Motherwell football club and its future. 

Yes, the society needs to now really push on and provide strategic direction and yes, outside investment and extra financing should always be welcome but 50+1 is a redline, as are valuations which require the dilution of society shares below that of what the society has acquired them for. 

Quite frankly, this all smacks of absolutely dreadful governance and should see the board removed from the club, in its entirety.

The well society do need to push on and provide strategic direction - but we've been fan owned for a long time now. It's clearly important that we aren't just fan owned on paper as it were and that the work of the society isn't devalued. 

This is a mess - but it's a mess that's been allowed to get to where it is and its the fans left asking questions (I don't have sources who know what's going on nor have I spoken to Erik at any point, I'm just a society member). 

[RandomGuy.]

1 hour ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I cannot stress enough this isn't a prediction, it's certainly not based on any insider knowledge and is, in fact, a conspiracy theory. But since you brought it up...

Erik running the club and selling it to a local consortium after 3-6 years ticks almost every box in the old search for motive and opportunity.

He can make money off his documentary and establish Wild Sheep's credibility for bigger clubs. He can hand the club back not only safely but it will have grown (nothing to do with him being good or bad, we know this will happen anyway).

The local businessmen can buy the club for an incredibly cheap amount and 'bring it back' to the community. They look like the good guys for doing this and don't have to worry about the perception of buying from the Society which Eric's deal conveniently neutered for them.

As part of the community aspect of their takeover, they'll 'revitalise' the Society by saying we paid to buy the club back, how about you fund the rainy day reserve again in exchange for some token participation?

Voila, the local guys get to wear their ties and run the club without the hassle of Society input but benefit from it offering the softest of overdrafts, project funding and so on.

Maybe it's a million miles off but to me it's not nearly as wild as some bloke from LA suddenly he deciding he wants to be the open-ended owner of Motherwell with no exit strategy and some of the other things being said in justification of the proposal.

Or he's seen Caledonian Braves set up create a massive amount of "business partners" linking up due to investing in them, seen Wrexham exploit an apparent weakness in the UK market streaming wise, been priced out of the English market, went for the Scottish market and seen your video looking like you're skint and desperate for money, and plumped for that.

For what's not a huge financial commitment he presumably hopes to sell a slice of a top flight Scottish club to wealthy Americans, gets to use a top flight Scottish clubs branding to help promote his company, and gets profits from streaming due to it being the only top flight Scottish club doing it.

 

He'll be well intentioned enough to see it as a win-win as he thinks you'll benefit from the investment/exposure, but there's a massive, massive, risk the investment levels never reach anything like it's being promoted as hitting, and I don't think he has the money to make up the difference himself.

Edited June 16 by RandomGuy.

[Wellin]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Do I trust the Exec Board? Frankly, no. I don't.

At this moment in time I don't trust them to make Good Decisions as, for whatever reason, we've seen them consistently make Bad Decisions for the past 2 years or so.

This is a board who "forgot" to announce that the First Team Manager had triggered a year extension to his contract and had to finally clarify this via public apology. It's a board who took a full calendar year to appoint a permanent CEO after Alan Burrows gave notice.

We don't need to re-litigate every Bad Decision but the long and the short of it is that this is objectively a Bad Deal that impacts in a way that is absolutely fucking miles from the "fundraising initiative" McMahon spoke about originally - and the Executive Board are apparently recommending it?

As @David1979 says above our Executive Board is hugely at fault here and tbqh I fully agree that they owe Mr. Barmack an apology because the way that they've carried themselves has been nothing short of embarrassing not to say completely disrespectful of the Well Society and the support who contribute to that.

If nothing else the shambles that has ensued post-Burrows has clarified who was actually running the club through the period of relative success that we've had as a fan-owned club that they've been taking credit for.

I think personally the first thing that should be done is that the Executive Board members who voted for this deal let fans know their reasoning behind it. 

I'd like to hear from the well society board as well - how it actually came to the point where members who are on the board to represent the well society voted yes when other members were opposed. 

[Ron Aldo]

The more I read about this offer the more off putting it becomes. 

In saying that, I don't think that Erik comes across as a bad guy and it's respectable that he's tried to answer a lot of the questions put to him on here. But that's just the issue - trying to answer and being able to answer are 2 very different things in this scenario and there's just too much "we'll see what happens" about this offer (that's without even considering how crap the offer is). 

As others have said, the board are selling the club down the river here. Had Burrows etc. still been about we wouldn't even be having this conversation. The only thing that confuses me is what the likes of Mcmahon etc. have to gain out of this. Clearly they no longer want to be involved so just go and leave running the club to the WS? 

Anyway, when's the big Serbian boy being announced? 

[Swello]

2 hours ago, TheMighty said:

Whilst I don’t think this is a great deal currently neither do I think the Board (i.e. Jim McMahon) are doing anything other than what they think is right, or potentially right, for Motherwell FC. I don’t think there is a big conspiracy. A value in the deal has been identified and hope this week’s statement clarifies what this is considered to be. 

I don't think there is any sort of conspiracy (or else, it's a *really* shite, obvious conspiracy) - but given the clear implications of the deal purely as it was presented to us by the club last week, I think you can make a simple evidence-based case that the exec board are supportive of ending WS majority (and therefore "fan") ownership.

I think that's the headline of this entire saga - not a modest investment proposal with very few upsides.

[TheMighty]

12 minutes ago, Swello said:

I don't think there is any sort of conspiracy (or else, it's a *really* shite, obvious conspiracy) - but given the clear implications of the deal purely as it was presented to us by the club last week, I think you can make a simple evidence-based case that the exec board are supportive of ending WS majority (and therefore "fan") ownership.

I think that's the headline of this entire saga - not a modest investment proposal with very few upsides.

Perhaps the view, as you suggest, held in the Boardroom is that WS ownership won’t be enough to keep us where we are or take us forward (what that means is another debate). I think that is a legitimate viewpoint. I’d also like to think though that there is a better discussion that can take place between the WS, its members, and the Board on this. Transparency and objective debate so eventually we progress in whatever direction as a collective. Maybe as others have said that will be at least one good that comes out of this.

Personally I’d like to think there can be a partnership that allows this (i.e. maintaining current competitiveness as an absolute minimum) with WS majority ownership still in place.

In short I think you might be right. 

Also I wonder if the valuation is impacted by the view of the WS. If your perspective is that WS control is a negative (for want of a better description) does that lead you to a lower valuation or at least accepting a lower value? 
 

Definitely would be much more exciting to be talking about signings of mercurial Serbians. Even an Non-League Englishman would be grateful relief.

[Vietnam91]

21 hours ago, Erik Barmack said:

On the specifics of club ownership, I cannot provide assurances that are specific because we've never attempted to invest in a club before.

Gonna call you out on that. You told me you already attempted to invest in an Italian lower division team. Cesena if my memory serves me correct.

23 hours ago, Erik Barmack said:

We do think that the Club should be fan-owned, and understand that what we proposed doesn't 100% fit that based, frankly, on the feedback from TWS Board and this message board

This highlights the inconsistencies in Erik's argument. Suggesting the fallout on here has made him reassess his position is patently false. When someone has a 24hr delete set on their WhatsApp you protect yourself. So he's a few of Erik's takes over the past few months:

On the subject of Board makeup, look how control is at the heart of this conversation:

On the running of the club, Jim McMahon is not gonna like that:

 

Looking forward to "Fancy Hollywood types":

On the subject of WS income, archaic and hard to manage is convenient when you are trying to gut the other party:

Conveyed in mid June when things go south:

23 hours ago, Erik Barmack said:

We do think that the Club should be fan-owned, and understand that what we proposed doesn't 100% fit that based, frankly, on the feedback from TWS Board and this message board

Knowledge in mid March, so why put a head of terms together with WS on 46% and you on 49% when it's "insisted"?:

How his offer would change if there was major differences to our income. As of 2 weeks ago we are looking at an increase of £800k per season not the £500k hypothetical below, so if this follows suit, to stay consistent his offer has to change significantly too:

At least I was given the approval to do stuff like this, also, without him we're goosed by autumn:

On additional Investment:

Then the kicker, blink and you miss it (so not the TWS at all then):

On wanting to get involved the football department and "player trading":

Ketts has his wings clipped:

Motherwell FC brought to you by Jose Cuervo at Salt n' Lime Stadium, Motherwellshire:

Another idea floated was taking a home fixture against the OF to Wembley to maximise a grand day out in London and try and fill the 90,000 stadium. How that is community focused for the 4,000 season ticket holders ..... square that circle.

Erik is a chameleon based on his audience and the way the wind blows.

 

Edited June 16 by Vietnam91

[Wellin]

25 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

Gonna call you out on that. You told me you already attempted to invest in an Italian lower division team. Cesena if my memory serves me correct.

This highlights the inconsistencies in Erik's argument. Suggesting the fallout on here has made him reassess his position is patently false. When someone has a 24hr delete set on their WhatsApp you protect yourself. So he's a few of Erik's takes over the past few months:

On the subject of Board makeup, look how control is at the heart of this conversation:

On the running of the club, Jim McMahon is not gonna like that:

 

Looking forward to "Big Hollywood types":

On the subject of WS income, archaic and hard to manage is convenient when you are trying to gut the other party:

Conveyed in mid June when things go south:

Knowledge in mid March, so why put a head of terms together with WS on 46% and you on 49% when it's "insisted"?:

How his offer would change if there was major differences to our income. As of 2 weeks ago we are looking at an increase of £800k per season not the £500k hypothetical below, so if this follows suit, to stay consistent his offer has to change significantly too:

At least I was given the approval to do stuff like this, also, without him we're goosed by autumn:

On additional Investment:

Then the kicker, blink and you miss it (so not the TWS at all then):

On wanting to get involved the football department and "player trading":

Ketts has his wings clipped:

Motherwell FC brought to you by Jose Cuervo at Salt n' Lime Stadium, Motherwellshire:

Another idea floated was taking a home fixture against the OF to Wembley to maximise a grand day out in London and try and fill the 90,000 stadium. How that is community focused for the 4,000 season ticket holders ..... square that circle.

Erik is a chameleon based on his audience and the way the wind blows.

 

I've no interest in reading other people's private what's apps. If it wasn't sent to me directly then it's got nothing to do with me - and I'd say that no matter who this was about.

I basically just want to vote based on the offer we were presented with -and that's it. 

Edited June 16 by Wellin

[Swello]

31 minutes ago, TheMighty said:

Also I wonder if the valuation is impacted by the view of the WS. If your perspective is that WS control is a negative (for want of a better description) does that lead you to a lower valuation or at least accepting a lower value? 

From inference, I'm pretty sure that at least some on the Exec Board view the WS as a bit of a mill-stone - I don't think it's new or controversial to say that.

Ending fan ownership and running things more conventionally so that we can get outside investment is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint (even if it's one I strongly disagree with). Point is - if you (not you personally )want to do that, make the case openly and win that argument but don't do it as part of a weird deal and fail to explicitly mention it in your press release.

[Wellin]

1 minute ago, Swello said:

From inference, I'm pretty sure that at least some on the Exec Board view the WS as a bit of a mill-stone - I don't think it's new or controversial to say that.

 

Ending fan ownership and running things more conventionally so that we can get outside investment is a perfectly legitimate viewpoint (even if it's one I strongly disagree with). Point is - if you (not you personally )want to do that, make the case openly and win that argument but don't do it as part of a weird deal and fail to explicitly mention it in your press release.

Well yeah. The communication from the club in all aspects of this has been poor. Beyond poor. 

[camer0n_mcd]

19 minutes ago, Vietnam91 said:

Gonna call you out on that. You told me you already attempted to invest in an Italian lower division team. Cesena if my memory serves me correct.

This highlights the inconsistencies in Erik's argument. Suggesting the fallout on here has made him reassess his position is patently false. When someone has a 24hr delete set on their WhatsApp you protect yourself. So he's a few of Erik's takes over the past few months:

On the subject of Board makeup, look how control is at the heart of this conversation:

On the running of the club, Jim McMahon is not gonna like that:

 

Looking forward to "Big Hollywood types":

On the subject of WS income, archaic and hard to manage is convenient when you are trying to gut the other party:

Conveyed in mid June when things go south:

Knowledge in mid March, so why put a head of terms together with WS on 46% and you on 49% when it's "insisted"?:

How his offer would change if there was major differences to our income. As of 2 weeks ago we are looking at an increase of £800k per season not the £500k hypothetical below, so if this follows suit, to stay consistent his offer has to change significantly too:

At least I was given the approval to do stuff like this, also, without him we're goosed by autumn:

On additional Investment:

Then the kicker, blink and you miss it (so not the TWS at all then):

On wanting to get involved the football department and "player trading":

Ketts has his wings clipped:

Motherwell FC brought to you by Jose Cuervo at Salt n' Lime Stadium, Motherwellshire:

Another idea floated was taking a home fixture against the OF to Wembley to maximise a grand day out in London and try and fill the 90,000 stadium. How that is community focused for the 4,000 season ticket holders ..... square that circle.

Erik is a chameleon based on his audience and the way the wind blows.

 

I'm well aware this is an incredibly serious matter that concerns the future of the football club but I had to stop half way through that to laugh at how batshit crazy this all is .

[CoF]

 

 

 

[Ranaldo Bairn]

I have no comment to make on the offer or whether it is accepted or not (that's you guys' business), but magnificent reading on this thread, serious issues being debated sensibly and thoroughly.

You will probably not be aware of the "coffee magnate" who tried to take over FFC a couple of years ago. His offer was recommended to be accepted... and then people started looking into it and him very closely. Fan ownership proceeded after the infamous "statement/question-gate" and while we have serious challenges, mostly due to being, ahem, in the doldrums in a sporting sense recently, our new Board have been largely magnificent.

Tread with extreme caution, that's all I would say.

[Cedrics Mighty Well Army]

Other clubs have organised a "Golden Share" which cannot be sold thereby preventing any one individual or company taking complete control. (In other words, they can't dissolve the Club because they don't own that share.)

Perhaps something similar could be put in place in dealings with EB - a sort of security about what the WS cannot lose whatever transpires down the line?

[Vietnam91]

46 minutes ago, Wellin said:

I basically just want to vote based on the offer we were presented with -and that's it. 

Pretty sure that's the argument put by many Newcastle United fans to overlook the all the other "stuff".

If you wish to progress and not arm yourself with as much context as possible surrounding the future of our club because you have an issue with where it comes from and who posted it then that is your choice. Maybe if Erik's messages were sent to an official WS account maybe it would make you sit up and take notice. Thing is, his views, plans and aims don't change.

With a house being the major purchase any of us will make, you'd not be inclined to trust the glossy pictures in the Slater Hogg schedule. You'd do a viewing, see how the sun affects the back garden, look at the neighbours (is there 2 scrap cars up on jacks and an overgrown garden either side of you?), check the street and surrounding area, see if the practicalities fit your lifestyle. Maybe take a drive by at different times of the day. You know, add as much context as possible, not just shown in what you are presented by the estate agent.

Erik is effectively asking us to buy into his vision off plan as a new house builder, which needs a hell of a lot of trust. His offer, actions and justifications along with the inconsistencies I've tried to highlight does not merit nor deserve that level of trust to be reciprocated IMO.

This and combined with the behaviour of the club board, this really has turned into a dumpster fire unfolding in front of us.

[Well Fan]

When the curtain is pulled back revealing your slightly soiled undercrackers. 

[David1979]

Those WhatsApp exchanges are simply incredible. 

The notion of Stuart Kettlewell showing up to training on a random Tuesday next season with Stevie Frail to find two new Latin American players sitting in the cafeteria, each cradling a lukewarm tea from the machine and poking suspiciously at some traditional Scottish fare is amazing. 

"Who are these guys?" 

"Erik signed them last night. They're here to represent a tequila brand from the US run by one of Erik's chums. We've to make sure they see no less than 20 minutes per game, for at least 2 out of every 4 games. That's the deal we struck with the company."

Jesus Christ! 

And the idea of playing a "home" Old Firm game at Wembley Stadium? Even if that was attempted, the logistics of it are insane. Would Celtic or Rangers even agree to this? Would the league itself allow it to happen? How would we get our fans down to the stadium? Who are the other 86,000 fans we'd need to fill the stadium?

I’m guessing this can be filed under one of the "bad ideas" that Erik admits to having.

On a more serious note, I wonder if the executive board at our club knew about these proposals? That the new investor who wants to become Chairman sees it as part of his remit to go over the manager's head when it comes to signings? Did our new CEO know about this? Did he vote in favour of this deal?

I return to my message from a while ago. We need to not only reject this offer, but we need to begin the serious task of completely rewiring this club on the governance front from top to bottom.

[MP_MFC]

The thread going full Covid Inquiry is not the turn I expected today

[welldaft]

Certainly quite enlightening and insightful some of the posts above…..

Must be very rare for a support to get an in depth analysis / review of discussions leading up to the formulation of a proposal to take over their club. One benefit of fan ownership right there. 

My take like many is the Board have acted hastily in recommending what on the face of it is a poor offer. One wonders if their views may have changed not just based on the fans reaction but the exchanges and information highlighted here.

Will be interesting to see the statement the club release early this week as planned. Might take my mind away from worrying about watching Scotland play football in Cologne this midweek

[David1979]

Can we get a new Motherwell thread for the upcoming season and have this one locked and saved forever? We can't allow the past few month's worth of pages to simply fade away into oblivion. 

This surely has to be one of those chapters in Scottish football that rank alongside Giovanni Di Stefano buying Dundee and wanting to sign Edgar Davids. 

@Erik Barmack you'll forever be remembered I reckon!