Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[MJC]

The last month has been a 'Perfect Storm' for us in terms of fixtures (Celtic twice, away to Hearts, Partick, Killie and Rangers) and several key players missing through injury.

That said our points return in that same time has been nowhere near good enough and we really should have been taking at least something in at least some of the away matches we've played. Without Moult in the side we are toothless and our entire final third play is totally ineffective. We did well to pick up so many points earlier in the season even when not playing well but our ball retention has been dreadful throughout the campaign yet we got away with it because we had an effective tactic of playing it over the top to a very good front man who could not only bag us goals but could hold up play and allowed us to build attacks.

There are some players in that team who just aren't good enough at this level, namely Fisher, Tanner and Rose and at least one of them should be moved on asap. Then you have Bowman who isn't a prolific scorer but has the ability to be a good foil for one, sadly we've lost the only one we had. That will need to be addressed in January.

As for Cedric Kipre? The more I see of him the more I'm inclined to think of him as the 'Central defensive Eliphas Shivute'. A player who in flashes shows something, has a cracking name and is a bit of a cult hero with the support, but in reality he is an absolute bombscare who is actually considerably out of his depth and costs us goals and points. Not what we need at this level and he is due at the very least a lengthy spell on the bench.

Finally our captain, Carl McHugh. He has been awful all season and is completely wasteful in possession. Not good enough.

I like Stephen Robinson and he's turned the club around in more ways than one this season, but starting from Saturday he has one massive month ahead of him.

[wellinwigan]

28 minutes ago, MJC said:

The last month has been a 'Perfect Storm' for us in terms of fixtures (Celtic twice, away to Hearts, Partick, Killie and Rangers) and several key players missing through injury.

That said our points return in that same time has been nowhere near good enough and we really should have been taking at least something in at least some of the away matches we've played. Without Moult in the side we are toothless and our entire final third play is totally ineffective. We did well to pick up so many points earlier in the season even when not playing well but our ball retention has been dreadful throughout the campaign yet we got away with it because we had an effective tactic of playing it over the top to a very good front man who could not only bag us goals but could hold up play and allowed us to build attacks.

There are some players in that team who just aren't good enough at this level, namely Fisher, Tanner and Rose and at least one of them should be moved on asap. Then you have Bowman who isn't a prolific scorer but has the ability to be a good foil for one, sadly we've lost the only one we had. That will need to be addressed in January.

As for Cedric Kipre? The more I see of him the more I'm inclined to think of him as the 'Central defensive Eliphas Shivute'. A player who in flashes shows something, has a cracking name and is a bit of a cult hero with the support, but in reality he is an absolute bombscare who is actually considerably out of his depth and costs us goals and points. Not what we need at this level and he is due at the very least a lengthy spell on the bench.

Finally our captain, Carl McHugh. He has been awful all season and is completely wasteful in possession. Not good enough.

I like Stephen Robinson and he's turned the club around in more ways than one this season, but starting from Saturday he has one massive month ahead of him.

Disagree about Tanner.think he could be good behind two strikers.Kipre have to agree every time i seen him hes been woeful. Hope to see 2 new forwards in January. And Fisher get him in the sea

[capt_oats]

There's no doubt that Kipré has gone off the rails since the start of the season. However it's worth remembering that he's a 21 year old who's in his first season and he has played every minute in the league so far this season. In fact the only match he hasn't played the full 90 was the LC final where he was sent off.  Like any young player you're naturally going to get dips in form and having him play as much as he has you're virtually guaranteeing burn out.

Like Heneghan before him, we're really seeing the effect of over reliance due to not having an alternative right sided centre back. I agree completely with MJC that he really needs a spell on the bench. Playing him week in, week out whenever he's clearly out of form isn't doing him (or us) any favours. Robinson's on record as saying a right sided centre back was on the agenda for January anyway so hopefully that'll be addressed.

It's unsurprising that things seem to have gone quiet on the extensions we were in dialogue with a few players about.

Edited December 28, 2017 by capt_oats

[Gianfranco]

I’m very much still in team Kipre

[Ya Bezzer!]

Remember not that long ago in this very thread when quite a lot of you were queuing up to personally insult me for saying a)  Robinson should not have been offered a contract extension early in the season and we should wait until at least half way through the season before assessing him, b) Kipre was a bomb scare , c) our tactical set up under Robinson was short termist and would be easily countered when coming up against teams a 2nd or 3rd time, and d) our early success in the season was based on a combination of in game luck and a kindly fixture list rather than actual good play?

Just wondering if those peerless sages of the game who out and out mocked me have changed their mind?

 

 

Mind you might not be laughing on Saturday - could be a real chilly feeling in the bones if we don't produce a performance on Saturday.  

[Mr Hahn]

I honestly think some fans are throwing the baby out with the bath water at this point in time.

Aye we've not had a great run over the past few games and that could really do with being put right against Accies but let's put some things into a bit of perspective. Firstly, we have an almost entirely new squad this season let alone first team and to be honest if anyone predicted the first half of this season to have gone as well as this at the start, most of us would probably have dismissed it. A club in our position inevitably signs some duds with the kind of market we're in but IMO the signings we've made have been very good for the most part.

Secondly, we've been without our 5 best players since Celtic Park at various stages and a team of our size simply can't keep a top 6 level of performance when we're missing such an important crux of our team, particularly Moult who has scored the majority of our goals for the past 2 and a half seasons.

Lastly, we can off 3 very difficult games against Celtic including a cup final which, although a great experience, will have taken a lot out of some players mentally in addition to the physical demands of playing that level of opposition 3 games in a row. Dips in form happen for cup finalists, it's been seen time and time again in smaller clubs and there's no reason we should be an exception.

I maintain a cautiously optimistic attitude for the rest of the reason and I've seen enough from this team to suggest we won't be in any trouble. I think they're an athletic and determined group if nothing else, two qualities which I think goes a long way at this level. A good replacement for Moult is an essential but very difficult tast and that's the one area where a struggle could present itself but I like Robinson's signings so far so will give him benefit of any doubt to get the right man here.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I'm gagging for some vague transfer gossip. Might try and restart the Ciftci rumours from last year.

 

[MJC]

I fully accept that Kipre is a youngster and that's why it is unrealistic and unfair on him to expect him to play week in week out and not expect a dip. We've been there before with David Clarkson when he was a youngster. Kipre though has most definitely cost us goals and points, think Hibs home and away, Hearts away and looked woefully out of depth in both the semi and the final. He needs to work on his concentration and positional sense and keeping him in the firing line isn't going to help with that. I'm by no means writing him off quite yet, but there are worrying signs there.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I'd agree with the majority of what's been said about Kipre but I'd also add that his individual performance in the Fir Park Celtic game is one of the best I've seen from a Motherwell centre half in years.

[capt_oats]

I fully accept that Kipre is a youngster and that's why it is unrealistic and unfair on him to expect him to play week in week out and not expect a dip. We've been there before with David Clarkson when he was a youngster. Kipre though has most definitely cost us goals and points, think Hibs home and away, Hearts away and looked woefully out of depth in both the semi and the final. He needs to work on his concentration and positional sense and keeping him in the firing line isn't going to help with that. I'm by no means writing him off quite yet, but there are worrying signs there.

You could say the same about Heneghan and we managed to flip him to Sheffield United after a season, which is why I’m delighted we extended Kipré’s deal by a year when we did. If we were able to cash in on Heneghan then there’s no reason we can’t do the same with Kipré.

Ultimately though if we’ve got the money available then IMO we should be aiming to bring in a Hartley mk II for the right side CB position, give Kipré a seat for a while not least to get him out the spotlight having mainly been in the news for bodying Rangers & Celtic players lately and make sure we get the points on the board to ensure we’re safe as soon as possible.

The fact that Kipré arrived as a trialist and by our own admission exceeded initial expectations tells a story in itself. Reading between the lines he was brought in with a view to being cover (which made sense as we had released Ferguson who’s roughly the same age) but after his fine start we’ve made a judgement call that he’d be able to replace Heneghan in the first team.

I’d be absolutely delighted if we were able to get an experienced right sided CB on board to play alongside Hartley though (and get Hartley on a permanent deal).

[capt_oats]

I'm gagging for some vague transfer gossip. Might try and restart the Ciftci rumours from last year.

Plymouth are absolutely fucking desperate to get shot of him by all accounts. Adams seems to have signed him with absolutely no idea how to play him.
http://www.plymouthherald.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/loan-celtic-striker-nadir-ciftci-958935

[WellView]

12 hours ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Remember not that long ago in this very thread when quite a lot of you were queuing up to personally insult me for saying a)  Robinson should not have been offered a contract extension early in the season and we should wait until at least half way through the season before assessing him, b) Kipre was a bomb scare , c) our tactical set up under Robinson was short termist and would be easily countered when coming up against teams a 2nd or 3rd time, and d) our early success in the season was based on a combination of in game luck and a kindly fixture list rather than actual good play?

Just wondering if those peerless sages of the game who out and out mocked me have changed their mind?

 

 

Mind you might not be laughing on Saturday - could be a real chilly feeling in the bones if we don't produce a performance on Saturday.  

Are you that precious you take things "personally," on an anonymous Internet forum? 

[capt_oats]

So we've been shite (and injured) since the Celtic games and we're now also officially Moultless. Thank f**k for the winter break.

Robinson was quite pointed in his quotes after Saturday's shitshow:

Quote

"There's certain things that happen over and over again with certain players that I can't forgive, and if I keep saying the same things to people and they keep doing it, then it's time to look at something else."

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/watch-motherwell-defender-peter-hartley-11773841

So....who's he talking about there then? It's not just a general "not good enough" line, he seems quite specific about who he's not happy with and why. I don't think it's a stretch to say that, other than Tanner, few of those who have stepped in to the side through December have  done themselves any favours in terms of cementing a first team spot.

By my count, off the top of my head, we've the following all out of contract in the summer (or before):

• Griffiths
• Hammell
• Hartley (loan expires)
• Plummer
• Dunne
• Grimshaw
• Rose
• Bowman
• Newell
• Petravicius
• Xenodochof (short term deal expires January)

Robinson's recent comments don't really bode well for Bowman, Fisher, Newell and Petravicius tbh.

Quote

"We ran out of ideas and looked like a team that's desperate for the break. I'm desperate to get some fresh blood in because ultimately, strikers win you football matches. We need to make sure we get busy in the transfer window."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/42524673

I noticed Alan Burrows tweeting in a thread with the Podcast lads saying that he'd been working to get the first of the January deals "over the line" so it'll be interesting to see who comes in, how much business we end up doing and whether we get bodies in early.

Happy 2018 btw...

Edited January 1, 2018 by capt_oats

[ropy]

The first one will be Hartley?

[Ya Bezzer!]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

By my count, off the top of my head, we've the following all out of contract in the summer (or before):

• Griffiths
• Hammell
• Hartley (loan expires)
• Plummer
• Dunne
• Grimshaw
• Rose
• Bowman
• Newell
• Petravicius
• Xenodochof (short term deal expires January)

Will probably be time for Hammell to go after great service (I'd still have him in before Dunne though at left back) and Hartley, well he might not want to come back if the season goes tits up and he'd probably have other offers. The rest I wouldn't lose a wink of sleep over.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, season after season after season we waste vast amounts of our limited budget on absolute lower league trash.  Are we supposed to endure this every season on the basis that we can sell one out of 10,12,15 on for a profit?  Has no one figured out the correlation between signing garbage and being garbage?

The club strategy right now could be summed up with the old phrase -" throw enough shit and some of it will stick."

We should be bringing in relative quality and padding the squad out with promoted youth players.  We have no coherent youth policy at a time when our youth teams have actually done really well and I think that is absolutely shocking, especially given our performances over multiple seasons and the kind of players we are actually paying to bring to the club. 

If we finish 10th with lads coming through fine, I'll accept that.  I won't accept finishing 10th with a bunch of hacks up from Hartlepool on a paid holiday, playing dinosaur football.

 

 

[thisGRAEME]

On 28/12/2017 at 15:39, Ya Bezzer! said:

Just wondering if those peerless sages of the game who out and out mocked me have changed their mind?

Nah, I'll be standing firm thinking you're a heavy ghoul. 

[Ya Bezzer!]

42 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

Nah, I'll be standing firm thinking you're a heavy ghoul. 

Great banter.

It would be nice if, instead of dismissing people's opinions to the point of diagnosing clinical depression or nervous breakdowns, my detractors could actually come out and just say, maybe, just maybe, I got it right, or it least made some valid points.

 

Edited January 1, 2018 by Ya Bezzer!

[thisGRAEME]

38 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Great banter.

It would be nice if, instead of dismissing people's opinions to the point of diagnosing clinical depression or nervous breakdowns, my detractors could actually come out and just say, maybe, just maybe, I got it right, or it least made some valid points.

 

I don't think a shite December makes you any more correct than you were, no, that's why I dismissed it.

I think we look shattered, missing players (we've missed every one I'd deem a 'key player' for at least one game in December) and poor form (Campbell, Bowman).

I had great fun watching us earlier this season, if you didn't then I feel for you.

We've been rank one month out of the season so far, if we're rank for the rest of the season you're welcome to dig me out, I'll be sure and give you the credit due.

[Londonwell]

1 hour ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Great banter.

It would be nice if, instead of dismissing people's opinions to the point of diagnosing clinical depression or nervous breakdowns, my detractors could actually come out and just say, maybe, just maybe, I got it right, or it least made some valid points.

 

Praise me praise me!

Shut it ya roaster.

[Casagolda]

On ‎01‎/‎01‎/‎2018 at 10:10, capt_oats said:

By my count, off the top of my head, we've the following all out of contract in the summer (or before):

• Griffiths
• Hammell
• Hartley (loan expires)
• Plummer
• Dunne
• Grimshaw
• Rose
• Bowman
• Newell
• Petravicius
• Xenodochof (short term deal expires January)

See if we signed Hartley on a permanent deal, I don't think you'd really miss any of them long term would you?

I think guys like Dunne and Rose are nowhere near as bad as some make them out to be and have by an large 'done a job' in the short term. however I'm not sure at this moment in time I'd be rushing to offer either of them long term contracts- although I think Dunne might be due an extension soon due to his initial contract.

I think we can all agree that Hammell is pretty much done sadly. Both Plummer and Xenodochof were squad fillers when we were light on numbers who probably won't kick a ball for us before being released. The likes of Griffiths, Grimshaw and Petravicius all fall into the same category of being squad players who've been largely found wanting when the chance has been presented to them- not through lack of effort, they all just look extremely limited players who'll struggle at this level.

I think Newell has a bit of something about him but due to circumstance has been rushed into the first team earlier than Robinson would have hoped and isn't someone we can rely upon in the short term. I'm still undecided on Bowman, he looks a shadow of the player he was in the first few months of the season and 2 goals in 15 games since September is a pretty rotten return for a guy who, at this moment in time, is probably considered our main striker. Although when your only other senior striker hasn't even notched a goal yet this season the competition isn't exactly fierce.

Which is why in the short term, we need at least 1 decent striker in during the January window. I know Robinson says he wants 2 but we really need someone who can make an immediate impact, we don't really have time for a long term project who might take his time to find his feet at this level- easier said than done on our budget though of course. Could probably do with another centre back as well considering Hartley will now miss at least the next 3 games.

Wouldn't be surprised to see Robinson try and shift a few of those under contract on as well- I expect we'll be fairly busy and see at least 3 new bodies come in with as many if not more on their way out.