Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Swello]

13 minutes ago, gkneil said:

 

 

 

 

Absolutely Seething currant

I never realised Jim Traynor was 82 - explains a lot.

[ropy]

11 hours ago, capt_oats said:

This article is somewhat timely: https://thebackpassrule.com/2017/11/02/team-effort-the-reason-for-motherwells-fast-start/

 

That's a hard read,lots of stats

[ark loyal]

5 hours ago, gkneil said:

 

 

 

Absolutely Seething currant

 

At least they toned it down a bit before they released their official statement.

[Casagolda]

On 03/11/2017 at 08:45, capt_oats said:

This article is somewhat timely: https://thebackpassrule.com/2017/11/02/team-effort-the-reason-for-motherwells-fast-start/

 

Timing is everything..

Should have known after praising our much improved defensive performances that something like Saturday would be just round the corner. The defending for all 3 goals was absolutely appalling and a real hark back to some of the shambolic displays we we’d become accustomed to last season. Kipre goes awol for the 2nd and the 1st/3rd are basically the same goal. The 3rd marginally worse due to the fact we actually allowed Gardyne time to control the ball and pick his spot inside a crowded penalty box.

Said on the match thread I was unsure about starting both Bigi and Tanner as I was worried it would upset the solid spine our season has been built upon and I do think there was something in that. Specifically the players he dropped- Bowman and Campbell. Two guys that ultimately set the tone for our style of play and there were badly missed in that 1st half. We barely laid a glove on the County midfield and their back 3 absolutely strolled it 1st half with Moult struggling to do the ugly stuff Bowman does so well.

By the way Bowman was immense when came on, within 5 minutes he’d won a few headers, ruffled up their back 3 before scoring a cracking header and suddenly we made a game of it. His turn in the build up to the 2nd was superb as well.

But aye, tinkering too much with the spine of your team that’s been so successful thus far probably not a great idea. Not that I was unhappy to see Bigi and Tanner start, they probably deserved to in all honesty, however I’d argue the two guys benched were probably the worst two he could have picked from the spine of the team(maybe Hartley aside). 

[capt_oats]

100%, I thought the same as soon as I saw the goals go in.

The defending on each of the goals is horrific. It's no wonder Robinson was raging in the stands. The goals were a result of us not doing any of the stuff that we'd been doing well this season. Of course there have been a few games this season where you could say that we've been lucky to go in at HT still in the game and having not been caught out but on the whole the reasons we've been better defensively have been quite constant.

First one we miss out on winning the first header and don't pick up the knock down/2nd ball,  Kipré absolutely loses his mind on the 2nd, it's an absolute shambles of a goal on every level. The 3rd, after it's cleared off the line everyone just stands and watches as Gardyne picks his spot.

It's probably notable that while we managed to fit Tanner and Bigi in the same side against Dundee we did so with Tanner playing off two strikers in Fisher and Bowman rather than as a second striker, it's not a role that's really worked for him with us. Tanner seems to offer much more in that '10' role if he's got players in front of him who are able to hold the ball up (which has never really been one of Moult's strong points).

Out of curiosity how did we set up at the back in the 2nd half after we took off Dunne? 

[Casagolda]

1 minute ago, capt_oats said:

Out of curiosity how did we set up at the back in the 2nd half after we took off Dunne? 

Straightforward back 4- Cadden right back, Tait left back with Kipre and Hartley in the middle. 

County offered very little going forward 2nd half though with Carson pretty much a spectator so it’s hard to tell how effective it actually was. 

[MJC]

6 hours ago, Casagolda said:

Straightforward back 4- Cadden right back, Tait left back with Kipre and Hartley in the middle. 

County offered very little going forward 2nd half though with Carson pretty much a spectator so it’s hard to tell how effective it actually was. 

My concern with Kipre all season and in particular of late is that he looks badly exposed in his position. I'm wondering if a set up with Cadden protecting him on the right like that in the final would be to his and our benefit as if we are honest, we defend the way we have done over the past few games and Celtic will murder us. If we are to stand any chance in the final we need to do everything we can to negate Celtic's wide players like Roberts, Sinclair & Tierney on the flanks. We were lucky against Rangers in the semi that they couldn't punish us even though they got plenty of joy down our right side in the first half but Celtic will be a different kettle of fish altogether.

I honestly think that our best chance is that we shut up shop and try and take them to penalties but we will need to be far more defensively sound than of late to have any chance of that.

[capt_oats]

Some goal from MacLean for the 20s vs Dundee this evening (2min 50seconds). Quite the dink through from Turnbull and a sweet, sweet volley past Bain. Less said about the number of chances missed the better though. Jesus.

 

[Del_Superwell]

Craigan extremely annoyed at the chances missed tonight in his interview after the game,  almost sticking the boot into some of them to stand up and take more responsibility for their game,

[capt_oats]

30 minutes ago, Del_Superwell said:

Craigan extremely annoyed at the chances missed tonight in his interview after the game,  almost sticking the boot into some of them to stand up and take more responsibility for their game,

Aye, it's not the first time this season that they've been missing sitters. They got away with it against Killie, took a last minute goal though.

Can't help but think that Hastie would've had a field day with the chances that have been falling to Scott. Obviously with him being on loan at Airdrie it's meant others have had to step up but it's definitely putting a bit of doubt in Craigan's mind.

[Ya Bezzer!]

Just saw the highlights from Saturday.

Kipre at the 2nd goal is just atrocious.  That's as bad as anything from Hennigan or Zak Jules.

I'm afraid he's been a complete bomb scare since we gave him a new contract 8 games into the season.  Contracts should not be extended at that stage in the season.  Same applies to Robinson's contract extension.  If someone shows 6 months of good form fine, but not on 8 games.  Shows a complete lack of foresight which shouldn't happen when you are effectively writing cheques. 

Stats don't always tell the full story but it's telling that 9 of the 15 goals we've conceded this season have come in the 3 matches Allan Campbell hasn't played.   Guy should be the first name on the team sheet every week. 

Edited November 7, 2017 by Ya Bezzer!

[Casagolda]

Whilst I don’t necessarily disagree about the handing out of contracts on the back of a short period of form(Ross Forbes anyone?), I think Kipre’s shown enough both before and since his extension to say it was merited. Your assertion that he’s been a complete bombscare is just a touch dramatic for me as it’s only really been the last 3 or 4 games where questions have begun to be asked.

To be fair I’m still a fan, the boys only 20 and has plenty of good attributes to work with- few bad habits as well mind but enough good games to have credit in the bank. It’s his first season of senior football and he’s probably played a lot more than he or Robinson anticipated when he signed so I’m willing to cut him some slack as mistakes and a dip in form were always going to happen. Doesn’t help that people had probably gone a bit ott with their praise during his early performances. 

On top of that I feel he’s suffering from the same problem Heneghan had in that he’s a centre back essentially being asked to play right back for large portions of the game due to Cadden’s tendency to be caught up field. The space between him and Kipre is one teams have been looking to exploit all season. Dunne’s positioning on the other side isn’t exactly great but he has a decent turn of pace on him so tends not to get caught out as much. 

Anyway speaking of contracts, get Hartley signed on a permanent deal and give Bowman a well earned extension and I’ll be happy.

Outside of those two(and Moult’s who’s definitely away) looking at the rest who are out of contract- who to my mind are Griffiths, Dunne, Hammell, Plummer, Rose, Grimshaw, Petravicius and Newell- I’d be quite happy to leave in the meantime and look at things closer to the seasons end.

[Londonwell]

On ‎07‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 10:05, Ya Bezzer! said:

Just saw the highlights from Saturday.

Kipre at the 2nd goal is just atrocious.  That's as bad as anything from Hennigan or Zak Jules.

I'm afraid he's been a complete bomb scare since we gave him a new contract 8 games into the season.  Contracts should not be extended at that stage in the season.  Same applies to Robinson's contract extension.  If someone shows 6 months of good form fine, but not on 8 games.  Shows a complete lack of foresight which shouldn't happen when you are effectively writing cheques. 

Stats don't always tell the full story but it's telling that 9 of the 15 goals we've conceded this season have come in the 3 matches Allan Campbell hasn't played.   Guy should be the first name on the team sheet every week. 

Most young players have a lull shortly after their break through, this seems to be Kipre's. The trouble we have is there doesn't seem to be any cover for him, which is just about the only thing I would mildly criticise SR for. Kipre has clearly shown enough potential be given an extra year.

I can't help but get the feeling with you this season that you're sitting waiting until things go pear shaped so you can have a long winded rant. You were having heads gone left, right and centre pre season, which were made to look pretty silly with what has followed up until now. You have been relatively quiet during this 'successful' period and now we have lost a couple of games you're back on the scene to tell us how dreadful everything is again. We're no world beaters imo, but waiting on bad results to feel yourself vindicated is pretty sad.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Londonwell

[Swello]

On 07/11/2017 at 10:05, Ya Bezzer! said:

Just saw the highlights from Saturday.

Kipre at the 2nd goal is just atrocious.  That's as bad as anything from Hennigan or Zak Jules.

I'm afraid he's been a complete bomb scare since we gave him a new contract 8 games into the season.  Contracts should not be extended at that stage in the season.  Same applies to Robinson's contract extension.  If someone shows 6 months of good form fine, but not on 8 games.  Shows a complete lack of foresight which shouldn't happen when you are effectively writing cheques. 

Stats don't always tell the full story but it's telling that 9 of the 15 goals we've conceded this season have come in the 3 matches Allan Campbell hasn't played.   Guy should be the first name on the team sheet every week. 

Allan Campbell's form has arguably shaded too - but I assume that his contract extension was acceptable?  I thought the reason for Kipre's extension was patently obvious to everyone and therefore not controversial  - he was on a one year deal on low wages and (given his start to the season) would be exceptionally easy for another club (even at our level) to pick up on a pre-contract in January with the promise of a 2 year deal and a pay rise. You could feasibly accuse the club of bad judgement if that was your opinion but not of a lack of foresight as they are extending these contracts precisely with an eye to the medium term stability of the squad (and club). A lack of foresight was the Dempster/McCall years where international-class assets were allowed to leave for nothing and we were left with nothing to show for our best team in years.

Both Campbell and Kipre are young, inexperienced players who have the attributes to be excellent at our level - and to step up a level too - assuming that they continue to develop. In order to develop, both of these players will naturally have off games and runs of bad form - and will make mistakes. Unfortunately for Kipre, a mistake in central defence tends to be more obvious and more damaging than a similar one in midfield but that is something he needs to learn from.

We simply can't have it both ways - we either have a predominantly young squad, with all the freshness, energy and sales potential (and mistakes!) that brings - or we fill the squad with experienced journeymen of the Hartley mould, who may be more accomplished but offer no resale value....

[capt_oats]

2 minutes ago, Swello said:

Allan Campbell's form has arguably shaded too - but I assume that his contract extension was acceptable?  I thought the reason for Kipre's extension was patently obvious to everyone and therefore not controversial  - he was on a one year deal on low wages and (given his start to the season) would be exceptionally easy for another club (even at our level) to pick up on a pre-contract in January with the promise of a 2 year deal and a pay rise. You could feasibly accuse the club of bad judgement if that was your opinion but not of a lack of foresight as they are extending these contracts precisely with an eye to the medium term stability of the squad (and club). A lack of foresight was the Dempster/McCall years where international-class assets were allowed to leave for nothing and we were left with nothing to show for our best team in years.

Both Campbell and Kipre are young, inexperienced players who have the attributes to be excellent at our level - and to step up a level too - assuming that they continue to develop. In order to develop, both of these players will naturally have off games and runs of bad form - and will make mistakes. Unfortunately for Kipre, a mistake in central defence tends to be more obvious and more damaging than a similar one in midfield but that is something he needs to learn from.

We simply can't have it both ways - we either have a predominantly young squad, with all the freshness, energy and sales potential (and mistakes!) that brings - or we fill the squad with experienced journeymen of the Hartley mould, who may be more accomplished but offer no resale value....

[Ya Bezzer!]

55 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

Most young players have a lull shortly after their break through, this seems to be Kipre's. The trouble we have is there doesn't seem to be any cover for him, which is just about the only thing I would mildly criticise SR for. Kipre has clearly shown enough potential be given an extra year.

I can't help but get the feeling with you this season that you're sitting waiting until things go pear shaped so you can have a long winded rant. You were having heads gone left, right and centre pre season, which were made to look pretty silly with what has followed up until now. You have been relatively quiet during this 'successful' period and now we have lost a couple of games you're back on the scene to tell us how dreadful everything is again. We're no world beaters imo, but waiting on bad results to feel yourself vindicated is pretty sad.

Yeah, cos I paid out £700 odd in season tickets just so I could 'vindicate' myself to complete unknowns on the internet.  Are you serious? 

If I've been quiet recently it's partly because I'm working my arse off with 12 hour days and partly because I actually just don't bother posting certain opinions because I know I'll get the sort of post above.  I have absolutely no interest in being some micro celebrity on a message board and attracting that sort of attention, I'm a grown man.

Here's the deal,  I'm a Motherwell fan through and through, I've been going to matches for 30 years, long before the internet even existed, been through some pretty lean years by the way, and because I'm passionate about something I have opinions on it.  If you don't like my opinions fine but at least disagree with them instead of coming up with some risible psychological profile of myself.   And what's more, whenever someone like yourself takes a pop at me either here or on Steelmen Online, rarely if ever do they actually challenge whatever point it as that I made.  It's always about me, as if you can't actually come up with an argument against my points but want to disagree anyway.

Let's get back to the football eh?  Do you really think players should get contract extensions based on 8 weeks of form?  Or managers?   I'm saying that's not long enough to gauge, in a responsible way, if you are getting value for the increase in expenditure.  Agree? Disagree?

[Ya Bezzer!]

21 minutes ago, Swello said:

Allan Campbell's form has arguably shaded too - but I assume that his contract extension was acceptable?  I thought the reason for Kipre's extension was patently obvious to everyone and therefore not controversial  - he was on a one year deal on low wages and (given his start to the season) would be exceptionally easy for another club (even at our level) to pick up on a pre-contract in January with the promise of a 2 year deal and a pay rise.

Allan Campbell form has arguably shaded?  That fact that you have to put 'arguably' in there reveals the weakness of the argument.  Allan Campbell has been our best midfield player in just about every match he's played.  He's not been 10 out of 10 in every match but he's done well and has often been superb.

Kipre on the other hand has been an absolute bombscare in recent matches.  But he's got a song so let's not mention that.

I've given Kipre two man of the match awards this season, he's had good games, but you'd be daft not to acknowledge that his recent form is a big, big worry and it has to put doubts in your head as to what version of Kipre is the dominant one.  I hope he gets back to form soon but with a cup final coming up soon against Celtic don't tell me it's Allan Campbell you're are worried about.

Edited November 9, 2017 by Ya Bezzer!

[Londonwell]

2 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Yeah, cos I paid out £700 odd in season tickets just so I could 'vindicate' myself to complete unknowns on the internet.  Are you serious? 

If I've been quiet recently it's partly because I'm working my arse off with 12 hour days and partly because I actually just don't bother posting certain opinions because I know I'll get the sort of post above.  I have absolutely no interest in being some micro celebrity on a message board and attracting that sort of attention, I'm a grown man.

Here's the deal,  I'm a Motherwell fan through and through, I've been going to matches for 30 years, long before the internet even existed, been through some pretty lean years by the way, and because I'm passionate about something I have opinions on it.  If you don't like my opinions fine but at least disagree with them instead of coming up with some risible psychological profile of myself.   And what's more, whenever someone like yourself takes a pop at me either here or on Steelmen Online, rarely if ever do they actually challenge whatever point it as that I made.  It's always about me, as if you can't actually come up with an argument against my points but want to disagree anyway.

Let's get back to the football eh?  Do you really think players should get contract extensions based on 8 weeks of form?  Or managers?   I'm saying that's not long enough to gauge, in a responsible way, if you are getting value for the increase in expenditure.  Agree? Disagree?

Fairly sure the first part of what I said was related to your nonsensical footballing arguments i.e. Kipre has clearly shown enough to earn an extra year on his contract. But fill your boots with the rest of your persecution complex drivel if you wish. I have only ever tackled you on what I see as your fairly ridiculous view points on MFC this season and commented on the marked difference in your view points from previous seasons.

I believe I've already answered the question that you've posed, and if I went on any further I would probably just be repeating what Swello has already said much more succinctly than I ever could.  

Let me ask you a question, do you believe Kipre should have been paid a youth players wage whilst playing week in week out for the 1st team? Because that was the situation at the start of the season.

[Swello]

2 minutes ago, Ya Bezzer! said:

Allan Campbell form has arguably shaded?  That fact that you have to put 'arguably' in there reveals the weakness of the argument.  Allan Campbell has been our best midfield player in just about every match he's played.  He's not been 10 out of 10 in every match but he's done well and has often been superb.

Kipre on the other hand has been an absolute bombscare in recent matches.  But he's got a song so let's not mention that.

I've given Kipre two man of the match awards this season, he's had good games, but you'd be daft not to acknowledge that his recent form is a big, big worry and it has to put doubts in your head as to what version of Kipre is the dominant one.  I hope he gets back to form soon but with a cup final coming up soon against Celtic don't tell me it's Allan Campbell your are worried about.

I put arguably as I'm not arrogant enough to think my opinion is the final word on anything

I watched Campbell against Hibs at Fir Park and I compared his performance to the one that I saw in the first half at the corresponding fixture at Easter Rd (when the team also wasn't playing well) - and I saw a big drop off. But that's fine! He was dropped/rested after the semi and that was fine too - he is potentially a fantastic player (and has indeed been superb at times) but we need to look after him and not burden him with unrealistic "first name on the teamsheet" type expectations...

[Ya Bezzer!]

3 minutes ago, Londonwell said:

 Let me ask you a question, do you believe Kipre should have been paid a youth players wage whilst playing week in week out for the 1st team? Because that was the situation at the start of the season.

  "I'm very happy here and to be honest I was surprised to sign a new deal so quickly," Kipre told Motherwell's official website.

Seems the player was neither wanting or expecting a new deal.