Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[Dosser1886]

The, we're playing some nice stuff, but still losing games is getting incredibly tiresome.

[welldaft]

33 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Tbh, it feels like as a stat it can really say whatever you want it to depending on your disposition. There's no real context to 'shot on target', Aberdeen's 10 shots could have been 10x daisy cutters for all I know.

Either way, to your suggestion that we're "by far" the worst in the league on this metric, take Hibs for example - 

08/11 - Ross County 3 (2)
04/11 - Aberdeen 6 (4)
29/10 - St Mirren 3 (0)
21/10 - St Johnstone 5 (2)
15/10 - Celtic 9 (6)
11/10 - United 1 (1)
08/10 - Motherwell 1 (0)
01/10 - County 2 (0)
17/09 - Aberdeen 1 (1)
03/09 - Kilmarnock 1 (0)
27/08 - St Mirren 2 (1)
20/08 - Rangers 2 (2)
13/08 - Livi 6 (2)
07/08 - Hearts 6 (1)
30/07 - St Johnstone 1 (0)

Total - 49 (22)

They've faced fewer shots on target than us (9) but conceded more goals.

Appreciate your efforts. 
It is some consolation to realise we are not the worst.  Maybe it is the silly nature of goals we give away that when combined with % of goals conceded v shots on target is depressing me. So many self inflicted and avoidable. Seems to be concerning more than when our GD was -20 or so.

In some ways I should be happy it is only -2 having played the Old Firm 3 times, Aberdeen and Hearts 2 times so far this season.

I think after Sligo I would take where we are currently but this losing 7 from 10 league games is the depressing reality. Even if it is more the run of fixtures to blame. Motherwell teams in the past would unsurprisingly lose to Old Firm x 3, Hearts x 2 and Aberdeen and then Hibs away. 

Saturday is a big game even if it comes before a long break. We cannot afford to lose imho. 

 

 

[welldaft]

21 minutes ago, Dosser1886 said:

The, we're playing some nice stuff, but still losing games is getting incredibly tiresome.

What the people saying it or that it is actually happening ?

[thisGRAEME]

According to Wyscout, we've had 174 shots against, placing us 8th in the most number of shots against, or 10.76 shots against per 90, which puts us slightly under the league average of 10.80 per 90. 

We've also conceded 21 goals, placing us... 8th in the number of goals conceded in the league. So that's weirdly neat, isn't it.

 

[welldaft]

6 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

According to Wyscout, we've had 174 shots against, placing us 8th in the most number of shots against, or 10.76 shots against per 90, which puts us slightly under the league average of 10.80 per 90. 

We've also conceded 21 goals, placing us... 8th in the number of goals conceded in the league. So that's weirdly neat, isn't it.

 

8th or 5th ?

Only 4 teams have conceded less goals than us. So I would say 5th best.

Pedantics I know but does that mean 7 other teams have had more shots against ? If so that would be surprising as we have had an arguably tougher fixture run of late. Playing 3 of the top 6 in 2nd round of fixtures so far. 

[thisGRAEME]

1 minute ago, welldaft said:

8th or 5th ?

Only 4 teams have conceded less goals than us. So I would say 5th best.

Pedantics I know but does that mean 7 other teams have had more shots against ? If so that would be surprising as we have had an arguably tougher fixture run of late. Playing 3 of the top 6 in 2nd round of fixtures so far. 

Sorry, aye, I'm a words guy not a numbers guy.

Unrelated as well, interesting to see we've updated Josh Morris' player brand book to "studs up hatchet man".

I'm not against it.

[Mr Hahn]

I'd also put myself in the "mildly concerned but generally hopeful" camp atm.

We're worse off pointwise than we were under GA at this point last season but no-one will convince me that we're not a better football team. This point last season, we were winning games but the way we were winning them, it just felt like an inevitability that we'd start sliding miserably down the league when we stopped getting a few breaks. This season, I feel the total opposite, that if we could just get a few breaks, cut out some silly mistakes, we're more than capable of winning games and climbing the league table. It's frustrating at the moment and agree we need the break, both to get some players back fit and do some training ground work, but I'm certainly not at the point of despairing just yet. 

I think we acquitted ourselves fairly well last night. First half was a bit passive but relatively solid and felt we put up a competitive showing in the second half. Meanwhile under GA, we took a fair few demoralising pumpings off the old firm and didn't look even close to solid despite that being the basis of how the entire team was set up.  Was gobsmacked that the throw in didn't get pulled back for the second goal but seems Collum maybe didn't see it? KVV also has to score that in the opening minutes which gives us something to hold on to.

Also how did Josh Morris stay on the park? Was convinced VAR was going to turn that to a red, had a pretty spot on view from my seat and it looked a red all day long. Really hope we're not going to have to start him on Saturday given current injuries. He might have been decent player at one point but we've yet to see anything from him and he looks bereft of confidence.

 

[Swello]

1 hour ago, thisGRAEME said:

Unrelated as well, interesting to see we've updated Josh Morris' player brand book to "studs up hatchet man".

The polite ripple of applause afterwards from the connoisseurs in the East Stand was a nice touch.

[ropy]

13 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

This feels pretty unique in that I actually quite enjoy watching this team but I'm also fucking desperate for the season to be over already as long as it does with us 10th or above. 

I described myself as soft at the weekend as I had enjoyed myself at the Hearts game, and again, last night, I enjoyed the cut and thrust of the game, I was entertained albeit disappointed at the result.  I have sat through many a 4-0 drubbing from Celtic and 0-0 games with teams like St Johnstone (be careful what you wish for) and not enjoyed them or been entertained.

I want us to win but I also want value for money, at the moment I am getting one without the other.

[Luke92]

I thought we were complete garbage first half last night, some of the basics were miles off. 2nd half was a lot better but still not great made more difficult by the injury issues. Tbh Celtic had an off night last night and we were still miles off. We need to get something Saturday and then take stock in the transfer window.

Side note, some of the chant/shouts v the Old Firm the last few games have been an absolute red neck. More specifically that Green Brigade song last night was something you'd expect to hear at Ibrox. A few need reminded of what the club is supposed to represent. As you would expect from Celtic fans they stooped to similar lows singing about Davie Cooper but I'd expect nothing less from them.

[capt_oats]

Not to rake over old coals or that but looking at the VAR image for KVV's disallowed Goal Of The Season on Sunday - is it just me or have they drawn the line where Moult is rather than KVV?

To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against the decision being right or wrong. There's a chance Van Veen is marginally off anyway. I'm just curious as to whether the line they've used has been drawn based on the position of a player who had zero involvement in the goal.

Edited November 10, 2022 by capt_oats

[JamesP_81]

19 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Not to rake over old coals or that but looking at the VAR image for KVV's disallowed Goal Of The Season on Sunday - is it just me or have they drawn the line where Moult is rather than KVV?

I thought that when I saw the highlights but didn't want to dwell on it in case it turned out to really be onside.  Although that couldn't possibly happen as according to all the Celtic fans comments I've read after last night ( I know I know ) nobody gets bad decisions except them. 

[ropy]

The red line is touching KVV’s toe, is that what counts ?

[Ginaro]

1 hour ago, capt_oats said:

Not to rake over old coals or that but looking at the VAR image for KVV's disallowed Goal Of The Season on Sunday - is it just me or have they drawn the line where Moult is rather than KVV?

To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against the decision being right or wrong. There's a chance Van Veen is marginally off anyway. I'm just curious as to whether the line they've used has been drawn based on the position of a player who had zero involvement in the goal.

No, that is drawn correctly. Look at the blue line to the Hearts player - if they'd drawn the red line to the front of Moult's foot it would be further forward at the nearest point to the goal, whereas the red line is actually just in front of the KVV foot.

And if the player behind was totally obscured on this angle, all 6 cameras are calibrated for offside so they could choose another camera to find the foot and click on that to create the offside line.

[Kapowzer]

VAR pretty much did us favours last night, I thought Jota was borderline but I always thought in a 50-50 the benefit of the doubt was given to the attacking team. It was certainly the instruction given to referee's a few years back. We benefited in what many would regard as a dead rubber but VAR was advertised as catching this stuff. Anything 6" or under should be attacking team, arguing over minutia is tiresome.

Their third second goal was a carbon copy of what undid us for the second ruled out one before. I mean .... Jesus f**k, we don't even learn lessons 10 minutes on, let alone from one game to the next. This is what I've been talking about us being soft as shit.

Morris' challenge was reckless and if he walked there could be no complaints. It looked like he wanted down the road a week early, beat the mad rush at Curry's for a new OLED.

[Phillips455]

39 minutes ago, Kapowzer said:

VAR pretty much did us favours last night, I thought Jota was borderline but I always thought in a 50-50 the benefit of the doubt was given to the attacking team. It was certainly the instruction given to referee's a few years back. We benefited in what many would regard as a dead rubber but VAR was advertised as catching this stuff. Anything 6" or under should be attacking team, arguing over minutia is tiresome.

Just fyi, the flag was already up so VAR could only attempt to overturn the decision if it was an obvious error. So even without VAR it would be ruled offside. The intent is that most onfield decisions would remain the same unless it was obviously a mistake.

 

Morris Tackle is one that should have been highlighted though (and the build up to the actual 2nd Celtic Goal) but those are the breaks with VAR.

 

[JamesP_81]

Imo the thing that saved Morris was that he made contact with his leg rather that the flat of his foot . Connects studs up and it's a straight red no question , as it was I feel it would be hard to justify a red, tho with collum in charge it wouldn't surprise me.  

As been mentioned both offside decisions were too close for VAR to overturn so on this occasion each call on the park stood rather than VAR f*cking one team or the other over.  What gets me is why a linesman would ever put their flag up for a close offside call now, keep it down and VAR will overturn it if it's clearly wrong. 

Still f*cking raging that not more is being made about a player off the park changing the result of the game. 

[Kapowzer]

11 minutes ago, Phillips455 said:

Just fyi, the flag was already up so VAR could only attempt to overturn the decision if it was an obvious error. So even without VAR it would be ruled offside. The intent is that most onfield decisions would remain the same unless it was obviously a mistake.

 

Morris Tackle is one that should have been highlighted though (and the build up to the actual 2nd Celtic Goal) but those are the breaks with VAR.

 

I must admit I didn't notice the linesman, so fair play. I've noticed in the EPL certainly since the start of this season they don't tend to flag in marginals and let the game go on. If it ends in nothing they then flag and the free kick is taken from the offside point, in something significant such as a significant foul, penalty or goal then its checked.

What's the rule now anyway, is it front foot, any part of body? I recall it was closest armpit was the measuring point but it seems to change all the time.

I said in the VAR thread, if when the final whistle goes the pundits have the same number of contentious things to debate as they did a month ago before VAR what is the point? There were two events custom made for VAR and it didn't really do as it says on the tin. It's all sliding doors stuff, if Maeda's goal was brought back for a free kick on the near touchline, there would not be an identical passage of play to allow Tierney to score. At least we'd have less of a hill to climb.

I don't know the exact wording about players off the field of play interfering I suppose you move into was there a deliberate movement to head the ball/was it thrown too close/was it naivety from us. Regardless it was soft as shit.

 

[Kapowzer]

18 minutes ago, JamesP_81 said:

Imo the thing that saved Morris was that he made contact with his leg rather that the flat of his foot . Connects studs up and it's a straight red no question , as it was I feel it would be hard to justify a red, tho with collum in charge it wouldn't surprise me.  

As been mentioned both offside decisions were too close for VAR to overturn so on this occasion each call on the park stood rather than VAR f*cking one team or the other over.  What gets me is why a linesman would ever put their flag up for a close offside call now, keep it down and VAR will overturn it if it's clearly wrong. 

Still f*cking raging that not more is being made about a player off the park changing the result of the game. 

You're moving into "dangerous play" territory though, fouls are now given even if the ball is contacted first evidenced by how many players and fans still shout "I/he got the ball" only for the referee to judge regardless of that, the challenge put the other player in undue peril.

If any of you want a laugh and see how the game has moved on, I stumbled across this a few days back. Of course Wimbledon and Jones in particular had a reputation but what's equally amazing is the reluctance by the referee to brandish any cards despite mental challenges by today's standard. Some of the stuff is eyewatering.

 

[rainbowrising]

Apparently, in the Jota incident one of the "VAR" cams was tracking the managers in the dugout. Hence no image from that area.

The camera in question is used for VAR but also for general coverage.

If we want to reduce the idea of VAR to a bad joke, when it's actually the complete ineptitude of people in the game, we are heading the right way.