Motherwell FC - A Thread For All Seasons

[capt_oats]

49 minutes ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think Turnbull has had a raw deal of it at Celtic, especially considering in his first season, he was more or less the only player who turned out positively for them.

I understand how he his style didn't quite fit the pace under Postecoglu, but his goals and assists rate when on the pitch is incredible. 

Surely, there's a top team that could make a player out of that.

I think I'm kind of echoing something that @Desp has alluded to in the past in that the problem with Turnbull, in so much as it's a problem, is that he's the sort of player that you kind of have to build your team around or at the very least free him up to just let him cook and that's a big ask at Celtic.

I've never actually thought he's a #10, I've always seen him more as an #8 which is why I think why the physical aspect of his game gets called into question.

The idea that moving to Celtic "hasn't worked" that you see flying around is a bit of a nonsense tbh.

Like, he hasn't kicked on as you might have expected especially with Postecoglu sidelining him for a season but as @RandomGuy. says if he leaves he'll have a league and numerous cup winner's medals along with a bunch of Champions League games under his belt.

If he's able to leverage a decent move be it in January or at the end of the season on a free then he'll have got exactly what (I assume) he wanted out of it.

Let's face it, while I don't know what offers he had on the table when he left us, I'd guess that the options he's likely to have now off the back of 100+ games for Celtic will be more appealing than he would have had as a 21 year old coming off the back of a major injury and 41 games for Motherwell.

That said, speaking purely from the POV of an outsider it kind of feels like his face has never really fitted at Parkhead because it's always been clear that he's seen it as a stepping stone and coming off the back of him knocking their "magnificent" offer back initially means that that particular section of their fanbase who want to be pandered to (and every club has them) were never going to take to him and the pejorative "he's a Motherwell level player" patter that Celtic Twitter if fond of rinsing has got really fucking old, really fucking quickly.

Edited November 30, 2023 by capt_oats

[Sortmeout]

1 hour ago, crazylegsjoe_mfc said:

I think Turnbull has had a raw deal of it at Celtic, especially considering in his first season, he was more or less the only player who turned out positively for them.

I understand how he his style didn't quite fit the pace under Postecoglu, but his goals and assists rate when on the pitch is incredible. 

Surely, there's a top team that could make a player out of that.

Ryan Christie/Stuart Armstrong level player and, if he’s lucky, he’ll get a move to a club around that bottom end EPL/Top of the Championship level club if and when he decides to leave Celtic.

Thats not to slate him or any of those guys either. Turnbull is a better player than anyone in my team although there is one who could end up as good as him in a few years. If that player ended up at a Bournemouth or Southampton level club in a few years then I would be delighted.

[Handsome_Devil]

7 hours ago, Sortmeout said:

Ryan Christie/Stuart Armstrong level player and, if he’s lucky, he’ll get a move to a club around that bottom end EPL/Top of the Championship level club if and when he decides to leave Celtic.

I'd be amazed if he gets an AC Milan level move from Celtic but if Lewis Ferguson is linked with Juventus (caveats aplenty on the truth here ofc), there's no reason Turnbull's next move won't then be to a top club - if he wants it.

I think there's a good comparison to Tierney and Robertson. Tierney reached a high level quicker but stagnated at Celtic while Robertson improved and overtook him at Liverpool. Robertson eventually peaked at the mental level he did but Tierney could basically catch up through his time at Arsenal.

Tbh I think a lot of depends on Turnbull, what he wants and what drives him. There's a lot of suggestions he was happy to stay local for family reasons and given he then played Celtic like a fiddle for wages in top, being critical of the move because it wasn't the best for his career misses the point somewhat. It's not untrue, it's just wasn't his priority. If that's changed we'll see where his path takes him but if he decides home(ish) is for him instead, he'll easily make a further packet playing in the north of England and good luck to him.

[well fan for life]

Absolutely blows my mind that more decent young Scottish players don't make a go of it abroad. If you're offering me some shitehole commuter town near London or going somewhere class I'm going for the Lewis Ferguson approach:

Bologna is also a class place, tbf. Impossible no to be having a good time. 

[Busta Nut]

My heart says "of course I'd go to Italy"

My head says "£15k a week at Atalanta or £60k a week at Brentford?" 

[Swello]

22 minutes ago, Busta Nut said:

My heart says "of course I'd go to Italy"

My head says "£15k a week at Atalanta or £60k a week at Brentford?" 

It's been said on here about journeymen Joe Efford types that if you're going to be that type of footballer, why not get to live in some different countries & cultures along the way and enjoy the lifestyle even if the football is crap. I think if you're someone of Turnbull's class who you could imagine doing well in European fitba - you'd be mad not to go an play in a good league abroad if you got the chance IMO. If he did well in Serie A for example - he'd still be at a good age for a move to the lower reaches of the EPL if he wanted the (really) big payday.

For all that Wee Al seems like a perfect English Championship player (how's he getting on BTW?) - Turnbull spending 40 or 50 games a season getting kicked doesn't seem such a good fit given his history.

[thisGRAEME]

36 minutes ago, Swello said:

It's been said on here about journeymen Joe Efford types that if you're going to be that type of footballer, why not get to live in some different countries & cultures along the way and enjoy the lifestyle even if the football is crap. 

I don't disagree but he ended up in Motherwell mate.

 

[Swello]

4 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I don't disagree but he ended up in Motherwell mate.

 

It's a different culture. Wee Tomo fucking loved it here - He's got a full mural of the Brandon Parade on the living room wall of his flat in Tokyo.

[capt_oats]

4 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

Tbh I think a lot of depends on Turnbull, what he wants and what drives him. There's a lot of suggestions he was happy to stay local for family reasons and given he then played Celtic like a fiddle for wages in top, being critical of the move because it wasn't the best for his career misses the point somewhat. It's not untrue, it's just wasn't his priority. If that's changed we'll see where his path takes him but if he decides home(ish) is for him instead, he'll easily make a further packet playing in the north of England and good luck to him.

See, I'm not even sure the argument that the move wasn't the best for his career really stands in so much as, without knowing the laddie, I think by and large he's got what he wanted from the move as far as experience goes along with the suggestions of personal stuff factoring into his decision.

What David Turnbull wants and how he views his career trajectory are completely different things to what some random running their jaw on a Scottish Fitba' Forum thinks he should have done. Given the position he was in experience and injury-wise there's an argument that taking the safe option that guaranteed first team involvement was entirely the sensible move for him to make.

Again, I don't know what offers he had on the table but his signing for Celtic happened the same summer Hickey moved to Bologna, Ferguson was still at Aberdeen and Doig was still at Hibs so the weird Serie A gold-rush of scooping up young Scottish players hadn't happened so I dunno it feels like a bit of a cheap shot for folk to have a dig based on hindsight after the fact. Tbh, a lot of it feels like it's folk wanting to take a kick at Celtic because they don't like them much.

Like, let's say Bologna had been interested back in 2019 and 2020 when he was up for grabs was there the same guarantee that he'd walk into their first team? Probably not. 

I've mentioned it before but Ferguson was 23 when he moved to Italy, Turnbull is currently...24. In terms of career trajectory Turnbull's time at Celtic has been the equivalent of Ferguson's spell at Aberdeen. Making comparisons between the decision Turnbull made at 19 originally or subsequently 21 with 41 first team games under his belt (during a pandemic) and Ferguson at 23 with 183 first team games feels a bit unfair.

Ultimately he made the choice that guaranteed him first team football and gave him experience of CL level football - which with the best will in the world, he wasn't going to get at Norwich or whatever. Either way, I'd say that he's now in a far better position to leverage a move after his stint at Parkhead than he was after 41 games and a serious (knee) injury at Motherwell.

[Neil86]

48 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

See, I'm not even sure the argument that the move wasn't the best for his career really stands in so much as, without knowing the laddie, I think by and large he's got what he wanted from the move as far as experience goes along with the suggestions of personal stuff factoring into his decision.

What David Turnbull wants and how he views his career trajectory are completely different things to what some random running their jaw on a Scottish Fitba' Forum thinks he should have done. Given the position he was in experience and injury-wise there's an argument that taking the safe option that guaranteed first team involvement was entirely the sensible move for him to make.

Again, I don't know what offers he had on the table but his signing for Celtic happened the same summer Hickey moved to Bologna, Ferguson was still at Aberdeen and Doig was still at Hibs so the weird Serie A gold-rush of scooping up young Scottish players hadn't happened so I dunno it feels like a bit of a cheap shot for folk to have a dig based on hindsight after the fact. Tbh, a lot of it feels like it's folk wanting to take a kick at Celtic because they don't like them much.

Like, let's say Bologna had been interested back in 2019 and 2020 when he was up for grabs was there the same guarantee that he'd walk into their first team? Probably not. 

I've mentioned it before but Ferguson was 23 when he moved to Italy, Turnbull is currently...24. In terms of career trajectory Turnbull's time at Celtic has been the equivalent of Ferguson's spell at Aberdeen. Making comparisons between the decision Turnbull made at 19 originally or subsequently 21 with 41 first team games under his belt (during a pandemic) and Ferguson at 23 with 183 first team games feels a bit unfair.

Ultimately he made the choice that guaranteed him first team football and gave him experience of CL level football - which with the best will in the world, he wasn't going to get at Norwich or whatever. Either way, I'd say that he's now in a far better position to leverage a move after his stint at Parkhead than he was after 41 games and a serious (knee) injury at Motherwell.

Also, as an addition to the whole Norwich stuff, Look how much of a disaster Billy Gilmour's time there was. 

[wellboy1991]

3 hours ago, Busta Nut said:

My heart says "of course I'd go to Italy"

My head says "£15k a week at Atalanta or £60k a week at Brentford?" 

It’s definately a factor. However looking at the development of Ferguson/Hickey and Turnbull is night and day. You have to consider the long term goals. 

I always thought DT was miles ahead of Ferguson but he’s at the moment IMO way behind him. Celtic as a lot of us expected and anticipated ruined him. 
 

I was extremely vociferous about this at the time. It was so much the wrong move for his development. He will now need to take the step to a Bologna or the likes to then try and progress further. 

[Handsome_Devil]

37 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

See, I'm not even sure the argument that the move wasn't the best for his career really stands in so much as, without knowing the laddie, I think by and large he's got what he wanted from the move as far as experience goes along with the suggestions of personal stuff factoring into his decision.

What David Turnbull wants and how he views his career trajectory are completely different things to what some random running their jaw on a Scottish Fitba' Forum thinks he should have done. Given the position he was in experience and injury-wise there's an argument that taking the safe option that guaranteed first team involvement was entirely the sensible move for him to make.

It's certainly a fair point but it's a we'll never know. You can certainly argue that if, for whatever reason, he wasn't ready to move abroad then going and being unhappy would definitely have a poor choice. That probably not in doubt and fwiw I'm certain if asked now he'd still say Celtic was the right move.

On the other hand, maybe he'd have thrived abroad despite his concerns and have spent years playing not only with but against much better players than he got staying in the same league (Euro tonkings apart), maybe that would have kept him in the Euro 2024 squad etc.

 

[YassinMoutaouakil]

If I was David Turnbull I'd have signed a 20 year contract for Motherwell

[thisGRAEME]

38 minutes ago, wellboy1991 said:

It’s definately a factor. However looking at the development of Ferguson/Hickey and Turnbull is night and day. You have to consider the long term goals. 

I always thought DT was miles ahead of Ferguson but he’s at the moment IMO way behind him. Celtic as a lot of us expected and anticipated ruined him. 

I was extremely vociferous about this at the time. It was so much the wrong move for his development. He will now need to take the step to a Bologna or the likes to then try and progress further. 

TBF, everyone is different. I don't know Turnbull, Ferguson, Hickey or Doig, but I don't think it's a terribly big leap to assume they're all pretty different people. 

Same as kids going to University, some are ready at 17, some aren't ready when they're 20, and ultimately taking that leap at 17 when they're not ready can ultimately be more damaging for them going forward as they lose confidence and in some cases, never return to it. 

For every Ferguson, Hickey or Doig who go on and thrive on the other side of Europe, there will be a Calum Elliot who's homesick at the other end of the M8.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

I do think it's worth bearing in mind that he was Celtic's POTY in his first season before a fairly unknown manager came in who a)played a style of football that is probably the antithesis of Turnbull's game and b)brought in Hatate and O'Reilly for that same position who imo are the two best players in the country. 

He'd probably be a starter in this current Rangers team or in most of the pre-Ange Celtic ones I reckon.

[Sortmeout]

8 hours ago, Handsome_Devil said:

I'd be amazed if he gets an AC Milan level move from Celtic but if Lewis Ferguson is linked with Juventus (caveats aplenty on the truth here ofc), there's no reason Turnbull's next move won't then be to a top club - if he wants it.

I think there's a good comparison to Tierney and Robertson. Tierney reached a high level quicker but stagnated at Celtic while Robertson improved and overtook him at Liverpool. Robertson eventually peaked at the mental level he did but Tierney could basically catch up through his time at Arsenal.

Tbh I think a lot of depends on Turnbull, what he wants and what drives him. There's a lot of suggestions he was happy to stay local for family reasons and given he then played Celtic like a fiddle for wages in top, being critical of the move because it wasn't the best for his career misses the point somewhat. It's not untrue, it's just wasn't his priority. If that's changed we'll see where his path takes him but if he decides home(ish) is for him instead, he'll easily make a further packet playing in the north of England and good luck to him.

I don’t really see it with Turnbull in terms of ending up at a real top club like Juventus however to be fair I didn’t really see it with Ferguson either and he has done very well and, based on comments and Twitter highlights, is going to get a big move eventually.

 

[ropy]

If Turnbull is still living with his mam then surely all his money has been put away in ISAs and pensions and he can live the dream back at Fir Park, there is probably a bus from Coltness that can get him to training. 

[Self-raising Lazarus]

8 hours ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

If I was David Turnbull I'd have signed a 20 year contract for Motherwell

Not pushed for a loan move to Newcastle? Bit disappointing IMHO

[YassinMoutaouakil]

2 hours ago, Self-raising Lazarus said:

Not pushed for a loan move to Newcastle? Bit disappointing IMHO

£50k signing on fee and we'll talk.

[thisGRAEME]

Bring Bowman home.

https://twitter.com/LowerTiers/status/1730709327009181787?t=TU9BfQQ9lO-cZxxTzInACQ&s=19