Coefficientwatch

[sjc]

34 minutes ago, GordonS said:

I've seen Steaua Bucharest and Red Star Belgrade win the European Cup. They'll never get close again. I don't imagine we'll see Brugge, Malmo, Partizan Belgrade or Panathanaikos in another final either. Dutch clubs have won it six times and been runners-up twice; it's been a long time since any of them troubled the business end of the Champions League, because their country is too small to generate the TV cash. I don't know about you, but I miss Ajax. And will we ever see a French club win it without whoring themselves to some dodgy regime? 

Obviously we'll never, ever see Celtic in the final again either, or Dundee Utd in the semis, or Aberdeen winning the second-tier trophy. TV cash has ruined European football.

Very true. A fairer more equitable and less destabilising way would have been to award the UCL prize monies to the participating domestic leagues with the participating Clubs keeping the gate receipts and a % of the prize money. Admittedly, this flies in the face of how prize money should rightfully be distributed but the vast amounts of cash available is undoubtedly negative for the competitive nature of the domestic leagues as seen by practically the same Clubs competing year in year out.

It's not going unnoticed either:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/06/europe-top-leagues-predictable-juventus-bayern

[Monkey Tennis]

8 hours ago, sjc said:

Very true. A fairer more equitable and less destabilising way would have been to award the UCL prize monies to the participating domestic leagues with the participating Clubs keeping the gate receipts and a % of the prize money. Admittedly, this flies in the face of how prize money should rightfully be distributed but the vast amounts of cash available is undoubtedly negative for the competitive nature of the domestic leagues as seen by practically the same Clubs competing year in year out.

It's not going unnoticed either:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/jun/06/europe-top-leagues-predictable-juventus-bayern

That wouldn't "fly in the face of how prize money should rightfully be distributed" at all.

It would just mark a departure from its current wrongful distribution.

[FairWeatherFan]

UEFA is stuck trying to keep everyone happy. Just look at the ICC friendlies and how that's grown. 

Anything done that's seen as at the expense of the "big" clubs and UEFA know they could split away.

[The OP]

Celtic have finished 2nd or 1st in every season since 95/96 and (at a guess because I can't be arsed researching) no-one other than Rangers has finished within 10 points of them. They didn't compete in the Champions League until 01/02, had to beat Ajax to get there and I think there was some tedious stat about never being in Europe after Christmas for x years until the Seville run. I'm not sure, therefore that blaming the Champions League for Celtic's dominance is entirely correct. It likely exacerbates the problem, but Queen of the South weren't threatening to break into the top two before Celtic competed in the CL. 

[FairWeatherFan]

18 minutes ago, The OP said:

Celtic have finished 2nd or 1st in every season since 95/96 and (at a guess because I can't be arsed researching) no-one other than Rangers has finished within 10 points of them.

Just last year Aberdeen finished 9 points behind, but like you say it's few and far between. Hearts in 1997-98, the year 10 in a year row was stopped, kept things to single digits and that was finishing 3rd. 20 years since a 3 way title race that went pretty far.

[Monkey Tennis]

19 minutes ago, The OP said:

I'm not sure, therefore that blaming the Champions League for Celtic's dominance is entirely correct. It likely exacerbates the problem.

I'm not sure about that either, which is why I've not once said the CL situation is entirely to blame.  

We're in total agreement here.  Why on earth would anyone welcome something that exacerbates what they already recognise to be a problem?

[Monkey Tennis]

29 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

UEFA is stuck trying to keep everyone happy. Just look at the ICC friendlies and how that's grown. 

Anything done that's seen as at the expense of the "big" clubs and UEFA know they could split away.

This is entirely true.

It's the same fear that opened up additional places in the European Cup for sides who did not win the league, in countries with large TV audiences.

[The OP]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Just last year Aberdeen finished 9 points behind, but like you say it's few and far between. Hearts in 1997-98, the year 10 in a year row was stopped, kept things to single digits and that was finishing 3rd. 20 years since a 3 way title race that went pretty far.

Forgot that as it didn't feel like it as a lot of the dropped points were after it was over. In any event last season we were playing in the CL and have been on and off for years, which kinda sorta ruins the argument.

7 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I'm not sure about that either, which is why I've not once said the CL situation is entirely to blame.  

We're in total agreement here.  Why on earth would anyone welcome something that exacerbates what they already recognise to be a problem?

I used the word problem  because it is being portrayed as a problem but it's not as if I'm up in arms about it. Other than one other Scottish side who killed themselves trying to compete Celtic are more appealing to supporters, more appealing to sponsors, more appealing to TV companies and more appealing to players. Unless you can come up with a way to change that your constant whinging about us playing in the Champions League is just tedious.

Edited July 29, 2018 by The OP

[Monkey Tennis]

On 29/07/2018 at 10:10, The OP said:

 

I used the word problem  because it is being portrayed as a problem but it's not as if I'm up in arms about it. Other than one other Scottish side who killed themselves trying to compete Celtic are more appealing to supporters, more appealing to sponsors, more appealing to TV companies and more appealing to players. Unless you can come up with a way to change that your constant whinging about us playing in the Champions League is just tedious.

Therein lies the difficulty.  You do actually recognise that there's a problem here, an enshrined unfairness.  However, that unfairness favours a football team you like, so you're happy with it.

You're right - I can't stop people being attracted to the sides who get to play with loaded dice.  However, the money this attraction generates need not be distributed along current lines.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[The OP]

4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Therein lies the difficulty.  You do actually recognise that there's a problem here, an enshrined unfairness.  However, that unfairness favours a football time you like, so you actually like it.

You're right - I can't stop people being attracted to the sides who get to play with loaded dice.  However, the money this attraction generates need not be distributed along current lines.

All professional team sports are inherently unfair in your worldview. Generally being from a large city is a loaded dice. 

I don’t think football is the game for you tbh. Running is fairer (if you ignore all the drugs).

Edited July 29, 2018 by The OP

[HibsFan]

All professional team sports are inherently unfair in your worldview. Generally being from a large city is a loaded dice. 
I don’t think football is the game for you tbh. Running is fairer (if you ignore all the drugs).

How come the NFL, located in a country that is a cesspit of late capitalism, is able to be far more socialist than UEFA football has become?

[The OP]

1 minute ago, HibsFan said:

 

How come the NFL, located in a country that is a cesspit of late capitalism, is able to be far more socialist than UEFA football has become?

 

I assumed someone would bring up American team sports. The answer to all is “because it’s a closed shop and has no legitimate competitors.”

Not to mention the fact teams move to other fucking cities 

Edited July 29, 2018 by The OP

[glasgow-sheep]

The sooner the biggest clubs feck off and form their own closed shop european superduper league the sooner we can restructure european football and return to a proper competition rather than a tv ratings event calender.

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, The OP said:

All professional team sports are inherently unfair in your worldview. Generally being from a large city is a loaded dice. 

I don’t think football is the game for you tbh. Running is fairer (if you ignore all the drugs).

Ah you're choosing to be silly.  I see.

Of course certain clubs will be larger than others and have greater potential to succeed as a result.  As you've already conceded though, that imbalance is being wildly exacerbated by the current structuring of European club football.  I don't think that's a good thing. That's all.  

Please don't characterise such an outlook,  as somehow being in possession of a whacky worldview.

[The OP]

6 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Ah you're choosing to be silly.  I see.

Of course certain clubs will be larger than others and have greater potential to succeed as a result.  As you've already conceded though, that imbalance is being wildly exacerbated by the current structuring of European club football.  I don't think that's a good thing. That's all.  

Please don't characterise such an outlook,  as somehow being in possession of a whacky worldview.

Not wildly. Hence Celtic were miles in front of the pack from 95-96 to 01-02 despite never having played in the CL proper. They also caught up to and overtook regular CL competitors. I think this argument will become circular from here on in.

Edited July 29, 2018 by The OP

[Monkey Tennis]

On 29/07/2018 at 10:33, The OP said:

Not wildly. Hence Celtic were miles in front of the pack from 95-96 to 01-02 despite never having played in the CL proper. They also caught up to and overtook regular CL competitors. I think this argument will become circular from here on in.

Yes, I do indeed think this might go round  circles if you wish to deny that giving the already richest club £20m+ in the context of our game, has a significant impact.

I'll leave you to pull up a chair with wastecoatwillie, and you can both watch the season unfold in just the way you like your football to be.

Edited March 30, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[The OP]

1 minute ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Yes, I do indeed think this might go round  circles if you wish to deny that giving the already richest club £20m+ in the context of our game has limited impact.

I'll leave you to pull up a chair with wastecoatwillie, and you can both watch the season unfold in just the way you like your football to be.

Nah, be honest, you’ll be going nowhere. You will carry on pulling up any diddy supporter who says “good result for Celtic last night” or similar. Just remember that if we beat Rosenborg we’re doing a service to teams like Strømsgodset by preventing one of the biggest clubs in Norway from pulling further away.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, The OP said:

Nah, be honest, you’ll be going nowhere. You will carry on pulling up any diddy supporter who says “good result for Celtic last night” or similar. Just remember that if we beat Rosenborg we’re doing a service to teams like Strømsgodset by preventing one of the biggest clubs in Norway from pulling further away.

Correct on all counts.

I will continue to pull up diddy supporters who let us all down with their blindness to reality.  It's clear that plenty of education on this matter is needed.

I will also take comfort in the service that might be done to the Norwegian game.  I wish however that it didn't come at the expense of the game I care most about.

[Lebowski]

How come the NFL, located in a country that is a cesspit of late capitalism, is able to be far more socialist than UEFA football has become?

I'm not sure that the huge revenue pocketed by the owners in American sport is particularly socialist tbh. They artificially keep players salaries down to allegedly keep a more even playing field, but in reality it's to increase profits.

[wastecoatwilly]

11 hours ago, GordonS said:

I've seen Steaua Bucharest and Red Star Belgrade win the European Cup. They'll never get close again. I don't imagine we'll see Brugge, Malmo, Partizan Belgrade or Panathanaikos in another final either. Dutch clubs have won it six times and been runners-up twice; it's been a long time since any of them troubled the business end of the Champions League, because their country is too small to generate the TV cash. I don't know about you, but I miss Ajax. And will we ever see a French club win it without whoring themselves to some dodgy regime? 

Obviously we'll never, ever see Celtic in the final again either, or Dundee Utd in the semis, or Aberdeen winning the second-tier trophy. TV cash has ruined European football.

It's good to see you agree with me apart from the few occasion that you have mentioned above,the total football years were great but living in the past and hoping it will go back to them days are long gone,Football is evolving with the world getting smaller and the game getting bigger,the powerhouse countries across Europe will demand a globalisation of the game so it becomes if you can't beat them join them attitude if invited,weather you like it or not,the business side of the game is affecting the sporting side but the question will always be what side is more important,there's no doubt the footballing fair play is fighting a losing battle with the super rich using clubs as their new toys,losing the integrity of the game itself to the corruption of money within the game will only lead one way.