Granny Danger Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, jamieson87 said: I'm probably missing something, but isn't Grieves proposition a second referendum also? He is looking at a mechanism to take the legislative process away from Government and transfer it to Parliament. From what I have been able to find, which I admit is limited, he seems to think it is possible to do this. Given his legal and procedural knowledge I assume he knows what he’s doing. I assume it means that the ability to propose legislation will then move from May to Parliament as a whole. That would be a game changer. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, welshbairn said: About a third to a half of them would so it could permanently split the Tory Party. Wahay! This reinforces my point. May simply cannot afford to foist a CU on her party so it’s a non starter. It might happen as part of the process but not as part of anything that she could propose. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, jamieson87 said: How frustrating must it be to go in for talks, as you were invited, to bring ideas to the table, and you are just met with the same scripted bumf. Is their anyone who doesn't believe the current process is about running the clock down? Those opposed to the May deal better have something to offer come Tuesday morning. Edited January 17, 2019 by btb 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strichener Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: Cutting through the bullshit. Here are statements I belief to be facts rather than just opinion or supposition. The type of amendments the DUP and Tory hardliners want will not be agreed by the EU27. Some form of Customs Union is essential to avoid a hard border in Ireland. The CU would need to be U.K. wide. Most Tories will not accept any form of Customs Union as part of a Brexit deal. Given these three facts only a second Referendum or support for Grieve’s proposition will break the deadlock. So in the case of a second referendum that results in a leave what do we go for? A third referendum? Or if this second referendum returns a remain vote, we just ignore the %age that voted leave in the first and second? I also think that there is a genuine attempt by the, for want of a better word, "elite" to somehow believe that Brian in Sheffield is looking on the EU more favourably now than when he voted leave previously. Brian will be sick to death of Brexit and will see the current problem as the EU being difficult and not wanting us to leave or making leaving as painful as possible. Brian will still be voting leave. Quite clearly a second referendum is not going to resolve this. Not only is it dangerous for the UK to go down this route, it will be disastrous for Scottish Independence. The UK government will not negotiate with the Scottish Government before a Yes vote. The SG will have all sorts of wishy washy notions that they will put into a white paper that will have to be negotiated with the UK and then when the UK refuse all demands from Scotland, there will be a call for another referendum just like we had over Brexit. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 That's another 12 days off the clock! Quote MPs to debate and vote on Brexit 'plan B' options on Tuesday 29 January Andrea Leadsom, the leader of the Commons, has told MPs that on Monday Theresa May will make a statement to MPs about what happens next in the Brexit process, and that she will table a motion. The debate will be held on Tuesday 29 January, she said. She said it would last a full day. MPs will debate what happens next with Brexit on Tuesday 29 January. This is the debate where MPs will push for votes on ‘plan B’ amendments. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Salvo Montalbano Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 So in the case of a second referendum that results in a leave what do we go for? A third referendum? Or if this second referendum returns a remain vote, we just ignore the %age that voted leave in the first and second? I also think that there is a genuine attempt by the, for want of a better word, "elite" to somehow believe that Brian in Sheffield is looking on the EU more favourably now than when he voted leave previously. Brian will be sick to death of Brexit and will see the current problem as the EU being difficult and not wanting us to leave or making leaving as painful as possible. Brian will still be voting leave. Quite clearly a second referendum is not going to resolve this. Not only is it dangerous for the UK to go down this route, it will be disastrous for Scottish Independence. The UK government will not negotiate with the Scottish Government before a Yes vote. The SG will have all sorts of wishy washy notions that they will put into a white paper that will have to be negotiated with the UK and then when the UK refuse all demands from Scotland, there will be a call for another referendum just like we had over Brexit.If it's Leave then we leave with no deal and those who voted Leave in this second ref can be blamed when it all goes tits up. If it's Remain, then we revoke Article 50 as the European Court confirmed we had the right to do. It's the simplest and fairest way, and and given May (or Corbyn for that matter) can't get a better deal, I reckon No Deal has to be on the ballot paper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
btb Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Friends like these................... Quote Mike Gapes (Labour MP) ✔@MikeGapes Apparently Corbyn is prepared to hold talks with Hamas, Hezbollah, Assad and Iran without preconditions. But not with the UK Prime Minister. Why ? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Savage Henry Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 7 minutes ago, strichener said: So in the case of a second referendum that results in a leave what do we go for? A third referendum? Or if this second referendum returns a remain vote, we just ignore the %age that voted leave in the first and second? I also think that there is a genuine attempt by the, for want of a better word, "elite" to somehow believe that Brian in Sheffield is looking on the EU more favourably now than when he voted leave previously. Brian will be sick to death of Brexit and will see the current problem as the EU being difficult and not wanting us to leave or making leaving as painful as possible. Brian will still be voting leave. Quite clearly a second referendum is not going to resolve this. Not only is it dangerous for the UK to go down this route, it will be disastrous for Scottish Independence. The UK government will not negotiate with the Scottish Government before a Yes vote. The SG will have all sorts of wishy washy notions that they will put into a white paper that will have to be negotiated with the UK and then when the UK refuse all demands from Scotland, there will be a call for another referendum just like we had over Brexit. At this point, it's remain or leave with no deal. Either way, the UK is split almost right down the middle. A GE will likely return another very close vote. Another referendum will return another close vote. Frankly, nothing is going to resolve this. Either we leave and suffer to the point that some government minister floats the idea of rejoining, or we stay and swathes of the population feel their opinion counted for nothing. It's a cliche, but we're all just looking for the least worst option. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieson87 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 15 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: He is looking at a mechanism to take the legislative process away from Government and transfer it to Parliament. From what I have been able to find, which I admit is limited, he seems to think it is possible to do this. Given his legal and procedural knowledge I assume he knows what he’s doing. I assume it means that the ability to propose legislation will then move from May to Parliament as a whole. That would be a game changer. Ah yes, I know what you mean now. It is also assumed that the speaker would be willing to help push this through, which makes it more likely. Would certainly shake things up. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doulikefish Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 This pleases me more than it should 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 minute ago, jamieson87 said: Ah yes, I know what you mean now. It is also assumed that the speaker would be willing to help push this through, which makes it more likely. Would certainly shake things up. I have also read that the ‘Humble Address’ process that was used to force the government’s hand on the legal advice issue could be used, so Bercow’s ‘assistance’ though welcome if necessary might not be required. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieson87 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 Should be more than enough time to wrestle control from the government, I think that is where we are headed, especially if these cross party talk amount to very little, which the early signs are indicating. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zidane's child Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 minute ago, jamieson87 said: Should be more than enough time to wrestle control from the government, I think that is where we are headed, especially if these cross party talk amount to very little, which the early signs are indicating. Exactly 8 weeks to leaving day. I don't see what will change though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieson87 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, zidane's child said: Exactly 8 weeks to leaving day. I don't see what will change though. I think if MP's get control of proceedings, the first thing they would to is to extend article 50. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, Melanius Mullarkey said: Listen, the people voted for a holiday and the people will get a holiday. Just get on with booking the holiday. Hey, what happened to "No holiday is better than a bad holiday"? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, jamieson87 said: I think if MP's get control of proceedings, the first thing they would to is to extend article 50. In the past the EU27 have said that only a GE or second referendum would justify A50 extension but they might compromise if Parliament seizes control of the process. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieson87 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 2 minutes ago, Granny Danger said: In the past the EU27 have said that only a GE or second referendum would justify A50 extension but they might compromise if Parliament seizes control of the process. I think the extension of article 50 would be to allow the mechanism of a second referendum to be agreed and implemented. If the vote on the 29th doesn't pass, I am not sure there is time for anything else bar no deal, without an extension of article 50. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fullerene Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Savage Henry said: Or indeed ask experts for their views, rather than get Edna, aged 84, and Brian, 19, from Darlington to speak their brains. It may be rather snobbish of me, but I really feel that vox pops have no place on proper news programmes. All that being said, some of the parliamentarians being asked to comment aren't making any more valid arguments than Edna or Brian. Actually it is not snobbish. Even if Edna and Brian said things you agreed with, it is not as if you can have an in-depth analysis of the situation with anyone standing in the middle of the high street. "Edna. If we went for a Norway Plus arrangement as opposed to WTO rules, how do you envisage that impacting on the economic outlook over the next ten years?" "Brian. How would you mitigate the short term complications from changes to immigration policy and how would you negotiate a trade deal with India, Brazil or China that did not involve more people from those countries being allowed to come here?" I think I would struggle a bit there. Edited January 17, 2019 by Fullerene 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Granny Danger Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 5 minutes ago, jamieson87 said: I think the extension of article 50 would be to allow the mechanism of a second referendum to be agreed and implemented. If the vote on the 29th doesn't pass, I am not sure there is time for anything else bar no deal, without an extension of article 50. I totally agree but the intention of one or the other would need to be up front. The EU27 have said that they would not allow an extension just so there can be more talks. I don’t blame them, this is 30 months+ ffs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted January 17, 2019 Author Share Posted January 17, 2019 Corbyn is still shouting for a general election. He really is a prime simpleton 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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