Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[btb]

17 minutes ago, renton said:

If the SNP want to use a GE as a mandate, or indeed a renewed mandate for IndyRef 2 and didn't gain seats? That's be a fairly useful stick to beat the SNP with. Ultimately if you want an Indyref then there is only one party to vote for at the GE. If you want a Unionist, pro-Brexit Government dedicated to the continuing denial of an IndyRef mandate, vote for any of the others.

If the SNP didn't gain seats in that situation then the probability of the nation voting for independence would not "be certain" which IIRC was one of NSs conditions for Indy Ref2.

[Granny Danger]

1 hour ago, renton said:

Rees-Mogg now claiming it's a choice between May's deal and No Brexit, which seems an odd interpretation seen as the default after April 12th is No deal, but it looks like he may be walking back his original opposition.

 

 

Regardless of my views on the DUP and the ERG, their analysis of the backstop is correct and their objections justified.

The bottom line is if the U.K. sign up to it there is no way to extricate ourselves without the agreement of the EU.

People have, can and will argue that it’s a moot point as it will never be implemented but that is naive in the extreme.

I’m struggling to think of a personal analogy but the bottom line is I would never sign up to something in my personal life that was so one sided, even if I thought that the chances of it coming to pass were remote.

I suppose Mogg like many of his ilk is willing to sell his principles because he doesn’t have the bottle to see them through.  The only ‘good’ think is that there are others in the ERG who are less compromising.

 

[Granny Danger]

If there’s a GE and the SNP can’t benefit from the Brexit clusterfuck we would be as well forgetting about Independence for a long time.

 

[welshbairn]

6 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Regardless of my views on the DUP and the ERG, their analysis of the backstop is correct and their objections justified.

The bottom line is if the U.K. sign up to it there is no way to extricate ourselves without the agreement of the EU.

People have, can and will argue that it’s a moot point as it will never be implemented but that is naive in the extreme.

I’m struggling to think of a personal analogy but the bottom line is I would never sign up to something in my personal life that was so one sided, even if I thought that the chances of it coming to pass were remote.

I suppose Mogg like many of his ilk is willing to sell his principles because he doesn’t have the bottle to see them through.  The only ‘good’ think is that there are others in the ERG who are less compromising.

 

The reason the backstop is very unlikely, and would in extremis be short lived, is that it rips up the integrity of the single market. We would have full access to it without paying a penny and without freedom of movement. It would be much better on the EU side just to extend the transition period. It's a total red herring used by the ERG and DUP to try for a hard brexit.

Edited March 26, 2019 by welshbairn

[Granny Danger]

14 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

The reason the backstop is very unlikely, and would in extremis be short lived, is that it rips up the integrity of the single market. We would have full access to it without paying a penny and without freedom of movement. It would be much better on the EU side just to extend the transition period. It's a total red herring used by the ERG and DUP to try for a hard brexit.

You’ve argued that on here many times before.  We will have to agree to disagree.

[O'Kelly Isley III]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

I don't believe that it's quite as simple as that, due to the fact that the majority of the population don't have any real interest in politics and are easily led with the "fed up" narrative from the msm and their unionist masters. Many will also be led with local issues and whether or not their respective MP's are doing a good job for their constituency.

Again It's all very well for you, me, and the rest of us who post on here to discuss mandates but the majority who turn up at the ballot box are led by what they read or hear in the media, coupled with their own ingrained beliefs which are very difficult to shift in some people, irrespective of the arguments and evidence you provide them with.

In fairness Scotland is probably more political savvy on the whole compared with England, however I suppose much of it would depend on the narratives that the political parties are providing and of course how that's reported and whether or not the SNP would indeed be publicly turning a GE into a mandate for Indy ref 2 ?

 

The SNP would be entering a GE with a leader who has been the only credible witness in the unfolding Brexit debacle; people may like or dislike her but Sturgeon has retained a consistent, coherent line on  how Scotland stands to be affected.  Secondly, the Unionist canard of 2014 about being 'better together' offering the insurance of continued EU membership should be shouted from every rooftop until Ruth Davidson's ears are bleeding.

Thirdly, as Renton says above now is not the time for electoral self-indulgence in Scotland; as a former Labour voter I have absolutely NO intention of tactical voting and I would encourage others in a similar position to hold the line.  The retired English gammons in Moray, the Unionist Orange boneheads and the queer folk in the Borders are lost causes but that should leave more than enough electoral clout to provide a strong and clear SNP mandate, provided the gloves are well and truly taken off. 

[ayrmad]

5 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The SNP would be entering a GE with a leader who has been the only credible witness in the unfolding Brexit debacle; people may like or dislike her but Sturgeon has retained a consistent, coherent line on  how Scotland stands to be affected.  Secondly, the Unionist canard of 2014 about being 'better together' offering the insurance of continued EU membership should be shouted from every rooftop until Ruth Davidson's ears are bleeding.

Thirdly, as Renton says above now is not the time for electoral self-indulgence in Scotland; as a former Labour voter I have absolutely NO intention of tactical voting and I would encourage others in a similar position to hold the line.  The retired English gammons in Moray, the Unionist Orange boneheads and the queer folk in the Borders are lost causes but that should leave more than enough electoral clout to provide a strong and clear SNP mandate, provided the gloves are well and truly taken off. 

Leave the Mundell' alone.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, O'Kelly Isley III said:

The SNP would be entering a GE with a leader who has been the only credible witness in the unfolding Brexit debacle; people may like or dislike her but Sturgeon has retained a consistent, coherent line on  how Scotland stands to be affected.  Secondly, the Unionist canard of 2014 about being 'better together' offering the insurance of continued EU membership should be shouted from every rooftop until Ruth Davidson's ears are bleeding.

Thirdly, as Renton says above now is not the time for electoral self-indulgence in Scotland; as a former Labour voter I have absolutely NO intention of tactical voting and I would encourage others in a similar position to hold the line.  The retired English gammons in Moray, the Unionist Orange boneheads and the queer folk in the Borders are lost causes but that should leave more than enough electoral clout to provide a strong and clear SNP mandate, provided the gloves are well and truly taken off. 

I hope you're right but I still encounter lots of people on a daily basis who despise the SNP, Sturgeon and anything related to our independence.

They can't actually give me a valid reason when I question their thinking, however they honestly believe that England supports us and that we would be bankrupt without them.

I have pointed them in the direction of Slovakia and the Rep of Ireland as prime examples of small countries with less natural resources thriving on their own, however they have closed minds and just aren't prepared to listen.

[Whitburn Vale]

Sad thing is it will probably be England that ends the union somewhere in the future and not us,probably when the oil and gas is gone and we're no more of use to them.

Remember the Poll Tax,we sat on our arses and took it,apart from the non payment campaign.

Down in sassanach land they took to the streets and rioted when it was being introduced there a year later!!

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Whitburn Vale said:

Sad thing is it will probably be England that ends the union somewhere in the future and not us,probably when the oil and gas is gone and we're no more of use to them.

Remember the Poll Tax,we sat on our arses and took it,apart from the non payment campaign.

Down in sassanach land they took to the streets and rioted when it was being introduced there a year later!!

That's true, when it's something bad (such as the poll tax or universal credit) then it's trialled in Scotland to see how the "region of dafties" get on with it, however when it's something positive (such as the regional development funding), then rest assured it will be England that sees it first with us being an after thought.

The one question in the referendum that was never answered was WHY if we're such a drain on the English resources through the likes of the barnett formula, were they so intent in keeping us in the union at all costs, surely it would have been beneficial to them to cut us loose ????

 

[John Lambies Doos]

Regardless of my views on the DUP and the ERG, their analysis of the backstop is correct and their objections justified.
The bottom line is if the U.K. sign up to it there is no way to extricate ourselves without the agreement of the EU.
People have, can and will argue that it’s a moot point as it will never be implemented but that is naive in the extreme.
I’m struggling to think of a personal analogy but the bottom line is I would never sign up to something in my personal life that was so one sided, even if I thought that the chances of it coming to pass were remote.
I suppose Mogg like many of his ilk is willing to sell his principles because he doesn’t have the bottle to see them through.  The only ‘good’ think is that there are others in the ERG who are less compromising.
 

Oof, Hope you are not advocating a no deal with that last paragraph GD. Vote leave, then write that. Mmmmmm

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Oof, Hope you are not advocating a no deal with that last paragraph GD. Vote leave, then write that. Mmmmmm

You are an absolutely shit troll; really, really bad.

[John Lambies Doos]

Sad thing is it will probably be England that ends the union somewhere in the future and not us,probably when the oil and gas is gone and we're no more of use to them.
Remember the Poll Tax,we sat on our arses and took it,apart from the non payment campaign.
Down in sassanach land they took to the streets and rioted when it was being introduced there a year later!!

This x 1000. We are a nation of shitebags.
It's ripe in our phycology, bitch, moan, chip on our shoulder traits. How the f**k are the current SFA still in charge (another small example)

[John Lambies Doos]

You are an absolutely shit troll; really, really bad.

Why are you always so angry? I was being a tad tongue and cheek but please review your last paragraph

[ayrmad]

Compliant.

[John Lambies Doos]

DUP favour a longer extension, first sensible thing they've done

[Granny Danger]

This poll tells you everything you need to know about the mentality of the Brexiteers.  Only 6% (of people in total not just Brexiteers) think the U.K. will get a good deal yet 45% still want to leave.

”Yeah I think it’s going to be shit but I’m still going to do it”.

It’s a bit like my approach to going to United games.  

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-will-of-people-poll-leave-remain-eu-second-referendum-vote-centre-social-research-curtice-a8839996.html

[Granny Danger]

3 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said:

Why are you always so angry? I was being a tad tongue and cheek but please review your last paragraph

Tongue in cheek = shit trolling.

I don’t want the ERG or DUP to capitulate because I am convinced that if they do May’s deal will win.  If they don’t the option will be second referendum/GE/softer Brexit/revocation.

The one thing that won’t happen is a Hard Brexit.

[Hedgecutter]

1 hour ago, Granny Danger said:

If there’s a GE and the SNP can’t benefit from the Brexit clusterfuck we would be as well forgetting about Independence for a long time.

 

Given the shambles regarding the NI border where there's a notable body of water in between to allow a backstop, imagine a Scottish-English full-land border if Scotland was in the EU but the UK was out.  Threats of Hadrians Wall 2.0* would probably scupper any independence movement.

 

*I know that Hadrian's Wall was never a border between Scotland and England, but you know what I mean.

[dirty dingus]

40 minutes ago, Hedgecutter said:

Given the shambles regarding the NI border where there's a notable body of water in between to allow a backstop, imagine a Scottish-English full-land border if Scotland was in the EU but the UK was out.  Threats of Hadrians Wall 2.0* would probably scupper any independence movement.

 

*I know that Hadrian's Wall was never a border between Scotland and England, but you know what I mean.

The Brexiteers technology will be ready by then. Android border guards and laser beams and shit. In reality though we can't let England's folly be our Indy downfall.