Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[btb]

17 minutes ago, Pet Jeden said:

If Labour don't agree to an election, could we be in no deal or revoke territory on Tues 29th? Or scrambling to pass the paused legislation in a 48 hour window.

Who knows -my opinion (and I've been wrong before) is that the EU would like to bump us (Westminster) into accepting the current WA and get a firm leaving date set. Details like whether we can negotiate staying in the Customs Union can then be agreed in the interim period with whatever govt. emerges after a GE - one less bridge to cross from the EUs POV. If a majority govt. emerges from said GE then the EU would hope/expect it do be able to pass whatever Trade Deal is agreed through Parliament.

Edited October 25, 2019 by btb

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Anyone posting that the Tories are far-right shouldn't really be commenting on politics. 

They aren't far right but they certainly are one of the most right wing governments I can remember - and I'm 52 now and old enough to remember Thatcher. What's probably more frightening about this mob is the ultimate lack of any principles behind what they do - whatever people may have thought about Thatcher the one thing you couldn't accuse her of was of not having principles.  

 

That all being said there are elements of Cummings strategy that come straight from the far right playbook - the whole prorogation of Parliament, the introduction of ID cards etc etc.

 

 

 

 

 

[ICTJohnboy]

1 hour ago, Pet Jeden said:

If Labour don't agree to an election, could we be in no deal or revoke territory on Tues 29th? Or scrambling to pass the paused legislation in a 48 hour window.

 

The reason (well one of them) Labour are reluctant to agree to an election is that Parliament would be shut down through October 31st, and there would be a possibility of the UK crashing out with No Deal.

[Guest Jedi]

The whole 'can't agree to anything until No Deal is off the table' is a straw man, as No Deal can still technically happen at the end of the two year transition period, whereby if a FTA isn't in place it could be No Deal then. Therefore Labour's position to try and stall a GE doesn't make sense from that point of view. 

Until a GE is held the whole process is stuck. Obviously Johnson has taken another toys out of the pram approach by suggesting that his govt can't or won't get anything done until a GE is held, but again technically a minority govt of any sort is stumped in getting any legislation passed at present.

Also, to block a GE could lead to the EU vetoing an extension which would presumably mean it would be No Deal next Thursday. Labour have to get on board with the GE, get it done, and then take things from there. Of course it risks a Tory majority or Tory/Lib Dem coalition but that will be the case whenever a GE is held in the next year as long as Corbyn remains as leader.

[ICTJohnboy]

Someone's just asked on a BBC phone in why we can't have a GE and referendum combined?

I thought that sounded like a decent suggestion, but apparently the electoral commission have said it wouldn't work because it just confuse the electorate!

Would any P&Bers be confused if, when casting their vote, they were presented with a ballot paper having an additional question on Brexit?

 

[Boo Khaki]

7 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

Would any P&Bers be confused if, when casting their vote, they were presented with a ballot paper having an additional question on Brexit?

 

I could suggest a few names who probably would....

[welshbairn]

47 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

Someone's just asked on a BBC phone in why we can't have a GE and referendum combined?

I thought that sounded like a decent suggestion, but apparently the electoral commission have said it wouldn't work because it just confuse the electorate!

Would any P&Bers be confused if, when casting their vote, they were presented with a ballot paper having an additional question on Brexit?

 

I'm sure we've had more than one ballot paper before. The Americans get reams of them, including referenda on local issues and electing the dog catcher.

[badgerthewitness]

48 minutes ago, ICTJohnboy said:

 

Would any P&Bers be confused if, when casting their vote, they were presented with a ballot paper having an additional question on Brexit?

 

If it was a racist (but not right wing) Brexit, I have to admit I'd be fucked.

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I'm sure we've had more than one ballot paper before. The Americans get reams of them, including referenda on local issues and electing the dog catcher.

That may be how Trump got elected...

[beefybake]

59 minutes ago, Jedi said:

The whole 'can't agree to anything until No Deal is off the table' is a straw man, as No Deal can still technically happen at the end of the two year transition period, whereby if a FTA isn't in place it could be No Deal then. Therefore Labour's position to try and stall a GE doesn't make sense from that point of view. 

Until a GE is held the whole process is stuck. Obviously Johnson has taken another toys out of the pram approach by suggesting that his govt can't or won't get anything done until a GE is held, but again technically a minority govt of any sort is stumped in getting any legislation passed at present.

Also, to block a GE could lead to the EU vetoing an extension which would presumably mean it would be No Deal next Thursday. Labour have to get on board with the GE, get it done, and then take things from there. Of course it risks a Tory majority or Tory/Lib Dem coalition but that will be the case whenever a GE is held in the next year as long as Corbyn remains as leader.

Labour don't actually have to do anything.......

other than continue to slowly back the government into a corner.

[ICTJohnboy]

5 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

That may be how Trump got elected...

 

Either that, or the electorate thought he'd be good at catching dogs.

[Pet Jeden]

50 minutes ago, Boo Khaki said:

I could suggest a few names who probably would....

Oi!

[Granny Danger]

The only sensible course of action is another referendum.  I understand the Tories will not accept that as will certain opposition politicians, but it’s the only clear course of action.

It might require a GE and a further hung Parliament until MPs accept that there is no alternative.

 

[LongTimeLurker]

4 hours ago, Pet Jeden said:

What defined BNP is their hostility to immigrants and non-white Britons.  Not particularly free-market right wing policies. Their Environment policy could have been The Green Party's. Health and Housing policies could be Labour's - just that they they would exclude all non-whites from benefiting from or providing same! And of course, you know what background they got most of their support from. So, no, I don't think racism can simply be pigeon-holed as a right wing thing.

Fascism in Italy and National Socialism in Germany also involved a combination of extreme totalitarian nationalism that persecuted minorities, fostered violent irredentism etc with social welfare policies that would normally be expected from a left wing party for the favoured national group that formed the volksgemeinschaft. It shouldn't be a surprise when a party like the BNP does much the same.

[Miguel Sanchez]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

I'm sure we've had more than one ballot paper before. The Americans get reams of them, including referenda on local issues and electing the dog catcher.

The AV referendum was at the same time as a council election.

[Paco]

I just watched Boris Johnson trying, and failing, to use a pair of kids scissors in a school on the 6 o’clock news.

Presumably this is why he couldn’t make the Select Committee today?

[welshbairn]

28 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

The only sensible course of action is another referendum.  I understand the Tories will not accept that as will certain opposition politicians, but it’s the only clear course of action.

It might require a GE and a further hung Parliament until MPs accept that there is no alternative.

 

Basically what Labour have promised. Win the election, negotiate a better deal with daft red lines dropped, and offer it out versus remain.

[strichener]

2 hours ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

They aren't far right but they certainly are one of the most right wing governments I can remember - and I'm 52 now and old enough to remember Thatcher. What's probably more frightening about this mob is the ultimate lack of any principles behind what they do - whatever people may have thought about Thatcher the one thing you couldn't accuse her of was of not having principles.  

 

That all being said there are elements of Cummings strategy that come straight from the far right playbook - the whole prorogation of Parliament, the introduction of ID cards etc etc.

 

So labour were far right when they introduced the Identity Cards Act 2006 and conversely the Tories must be far left for repealing it as soon as they formed a government.  

Not aimed at you but others stating Windrush shows the Tories to be far right, whilst ignoring the labour treatment of the Chagos Islanders in the 60s and all governments attitude towards them since.  This doesn't make every government since 1967 far right.

[ICTJohnboy]

13 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Basically what Labour have promised. Win the election, negotiate a better deal with daft red lines dropped, and offer it out versus remain.

 

Do you think that Brexit will have been resolved to a satisfactory conclusion across the length and breadth of the UK in our lifetimes?

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, strichener said:

So labour were far right when they introduced the Identity Cards Act 2006 and conversely the Tories must be far left for repealing it as soon as they formed a government.  

Not aimed at you but others stating Windrush shows the Tories to be far right, whilst ignoring the labour treatment of the Chagos Islanders in the 60s and all governments attitude towards them since.  This doesn't make every government since 1967 far right.

Comparing the Chagos Islanders to domestic deportation policy is a bit silly. Geopolitics makes governments of all flavours behave badly to foreigners on the other side of the planet who don't have a vote.

Edited October 25, 2019 by welshbairn