Brexit slowly becoming a Farce.

[Granny Danger]

6 minutes ago, harry94 said:

The thing is, it is bad for an independent Scotland to have trading barriers with rUK.

Real worry would be if we get no deal right now and then have a big trading mess that requires a long time to clean up after independence and takes attention away from other important stuff.

I agree but if we were independent then we would have no say over rUK policy and would just have to grin and bare it,

Yes if a messy Brexit goes ahead it will be a distraction that we will need to live with/overcome.the

Remember the argument during the Independence Referendum that Scotland could only stay in the EU as part of the U.K.?

C*nts.  Cunty, cunty, cunty c*nts.

 

 

[tirso]

29 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

If we were independent rUK could do what they want. Whilst we are part of the U.K. I want any decision to be in Scotland’s interest.

Incidentally I think that would also be in rUK’s interest.

 

So do I but sometimes what is in our interests may not be what the majority of the UK have voted for whether you want them to or not.  It's the essence of why independence is needed.

 

[welshbairn]

So the EU have said we can have single market entry?

They've said they're not changing this deal other than clarifications. I'd say that's much bigger than a clarification.

They haven't a choice if we stick to no freedom of movement and no rule taking. If we drop those we could get straight back in the single market.

[Granny Danger]

8 minutes ago, tirso said:

So do I but sometimes what is in our interests may not be what the majority of the UK have voted for whether you want them to or not.  It's the essence of why independence is needed.

 

What did the U.K. vote for in relation to Brexit?

 

[tirso]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

42 minutes ago, tirso said:

So the EU have said we can have single market entry?

They've said they're not changing this deal other than clarifications. I'd say that's much bigger than a clarification.

They haven't a choice if we stick to no freedom of movement and no rule taking. If we drop those we could get straight back in the single market.

Exactly.  And the rUK have no choice to offer that either as then it is not Brexit.  

I think Scotland could have pushed harder for a differentiated deal on those lines though.  Even if it fell on deaf ears it shows the problem of being part of the UK.  I don't agree with the SNP arguing the rest of the UK has that choice until another referendum or general election is called.  You can't simply ignore the result the English gave.

[tirso]

5 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

What did the U.K. vote for in relation to Brexit?

 

if it was anything at all, it was the ending of free movement.  And it all hangs from that.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, tirso said:

What does it matter if the deal is rejected?  There's going to be no other deal on the table.  

I don't understand if you agree Brexit must be carried out how you can reject the deal actually.  It wouldn't matter to remainers what the deal was.  They don't want a deal, they want to remain.  The SNP's position is flawed.  They want to be in the single market.  The EU have dismissed this.  Labour don't have a clue what they want.  There is no other deal. 

I think everyone is making the big mistake here of believing that the majority of the population actually give a toss.

Our discussions on here, current affairs programmes on the TV and the News in general would have you believe that "the country" is waiting with bated breath to see what the outcome is, however my own experience out in the real world is that generally most have no idea what's actually going on and most don't really care.

It's sad but it's true.

[Granny Danger]

4 minutes ago, tirso said:

if it was anything at all, it was the ending of free movement.  And it all hangs from that.

Wrong answer. If that were true there would be majority support for No Deal which would ensure the ending of free movement; there is no majority support for No Deal.

The fact is that there is no consensus as to what people voted for in voting LEAVE so anyone who takes the ‘Brexit Means Brexit, the People have spoken’ line is talking pish.

Interestingly we are now in a position to put it back to the people with a far clearer understanding of various options and their ramifications.   If “we” are sure the people know what they want it would be quite easy to test.

 

[welshbairn]

I see Thornberry has told Hunt that Labour will not drop no freedom of movement. So there would be no point in Labour trying to negotiate a better deal.

[tirso]

10 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Wrong answer. If that were true there would be majority support for No Deal which would ensure the ending of free movement; there is no majority support for No Deal.

A Nuclear war would ensure the ending of free movement as well but I doubt it's very popular.  

Ending of free movement was key.  No deal is not the only means of achieving that so its pretty obvious that it would not be a popular choice!  

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I see Thornberry has told Hunt that Labour will not drop no freedom of movement. So there would be no point in Labour trying to negotiate a better deal.

I still don't understand why everyone thinks this "freedom of movement" is so bad ?

Do Labour seriously believe that freedom of movement is keeping the wages low in this country and eroding workers rights ?

Surely as a Government they would be in a position to ensure that this does not happen ?

Or is it that they're trying to pander to the half wits that believe their "jobs have been stolen", and that they "can't get a house because of them" and that crime is increasing "because of them", but at the same time how many of these cretinous types will actually vote  in a GE ?

Using Burnley as a prime example, in 2017 Labour took 47% of the vote on a 62% turnout, the Conservatives came 2nd with 31% of the vote, so realistically is your hardcore Labour voter going to jump to Conservative if Labour changed their stance on the Freedom of movement question ?

The whole Brexit situation is just full of contradictions and that's what makes it all such a shambles.

[welshbairn]

I still don't understand why everyone thinks this "freedom of movement" is so bad ?
Do Labour seriously believe that freedom of movement is keeping the wages low in this country and eroding workers rights ?
Surely as a Government they would be in a position to ensure that this does not happen ?
Or is it that they're trying to pander to the half wits that believe their "jobs have been stolen", and that they "can't get a house because of them" and that crime is increasing "because of them", but at the same time how many of these cretinous types will actually vote  in a GE ?
Using Burnley as a prime example, in 2017 Labour took 47% of the vote on a 62% turnout, the Conservatives came 2nd with 31% of the vote, so realistically is your hardcore Labour voter going to jump to Conservative if Labour changed their stance on the Freedom of movement question ?
The whole Brexit situation is just full of contradictions and that's what makes it all such a shambles.

Like before the referendum nobody is pushing all the good stuff about the EU, just the negatives of leaving which are easily dismissed as Project Fear. Whoever in the SNP who invented that slogan has a lot to answer for. And whoever came up with the People's Vote. Wtf was the first one?

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

41 minutes ago, WATTOO said:

I still don't understand why everyone thinks this "freedom of movement" is so bad ?
Do Labour seriously believe that freedom of movement is keeping the wages low in this country and eroding workers rights ?
Surely as a Government they would be in a position to ensure that this does not happen ?
Or is it that they're trying to pander to the half wits that believe their "jobs have been stolen", and that they "can't get a house because of them" and that crime is increasing "because of them", but at the same time how many of these cretinous types will actually vote  in a GE ?
Using Burnley as a prime example, in 2017 Labour took 47% of the vote on a 62% turnout, the Conservatives came 2nd with 31% of the vote, so realistically is your hardcore Labour voter going to jump to Conservative if Labour changed their stance on the Freedom of movement question ?
The whole Brexit situation is just full of contradictions and that's what makes it all such a shambles.

Like before the referendum nobody is pushing all the good stuff about the EU, just the negatives of leaving which are easily dismissed as Project Fear. Whoever in the SNP who invented that slogan has a lot to answer for. And whoever came up with the People's Vote. Wtf was the first one?

Yes, I think one of the main problems is that nobody really knows what they themselves believe or what they "should" believe, regarding policy / political party lines or even what is the "right" thing to do.

What this whole shambles has undoubtedly shown us, is that our own politicians no longer have a purpose or a calling as it were, they are mostly careerists from all sides, their own leaderships don't seem to know what to do or even what they should believe in and the days of any of them having a purpose or cause look to be long gone.

The question then is, where does that leave us as the electorate ?

Who represents our views ?

Is there even any difference between Left & Right ?

Are in fact some Conservatives more left leaning than some Labour ?

As an SNP supporter this shouldn't bother me, however I don't think our own party is immune to this either and quite frankly it's depressing. 

Politics used to be pretty simple, or at least it seemed that way, but maybe it's always been like this and Brexit has in fact just undressed the whole charade in front of us all.

Who knows ???

 

[O'Kelly Isley III]

I still don't understand why everyone thinks this "freedom of movement" is so bad ?
Do Labour seriously believe that freedom of movement is keeping the wages low in this country and eroding workers rights ?
Surely as a Government they would be in a position to ensure that this does not happen ?
Or is it that they're trying to pander to the half wits that believe their "jobs have been stolen", and that they "can't get a house because of them" and that crime is increasing "because of them", but at the same time how many of these cretinous types will actually vote  in a GE ?
Using Burnley as a prime example, in 2017 Labour took 47% of the vote on a 62% turnout, the Conservatives came 2nd with 31% of the vote, so realistically is your hardcore Labour voter going to jump to Conservative if Labour changed their stance on the Freedom of movement question ?
The whole Brexit situation is just full of contradictions and that's what makes it all such a shambles.

There's no contradiction at all in the Brexit issue. EVERY form of it is contrary to reason and common sense; only the likely shocks on the economic and social Richter Scales will differentiate the variants.

[welshbairn]

There's no contradiction at all in the Brexit issue. EVERY form of it is contrary to reason and common sense; only the likely shocks on the economic and social Richter Scales will differentiate the variants.

Thinking logic has anything to do with the decision thinking is what fucked remain. It' was all about emotion.

[Detournement]

1 hour ago, WATTOO said:

I still don't understand why everyone thinks this "freedom of movement" is so bad ?

Do Labour seriously believe that freedom of movement is keeping the wages low in this country and eroding workers rights ?

Surely as a Government they would be in a position to ensure that this does not happen ?

 

The biggest factor on wage levels and terms and conditions in a labour market is the size of the reserve labour force ie people who want to work. The size of the reserve labour force is converse to the bargaining power of labour.

Since the UK unskilled and manual labour markets became perfectly elastic in 2004 we have seen wages stagnate, the proportion of minimum wage jobs increase, terms and conditions erode and massive increases in zero hours, under employment, fake self employment, agency work and the emergence of the gig economy.

 

[Granny Danger]

2 hours ago, tirso said:

A Nuclear war would ensure the ending of free movement as well but I doubt it's very popular.  

Ending of free movement was key.  No deal is not the only means of achieving that so its pretty obvious that it would not be a popular choice!  

Yeah but ‘Nuclear war’ wasn’t on the ballot paper.

You are still trying to claim that you know what people were voting for; you don’t.  People were voting for a myriad of things and Theresa May cannot claim her deal is what people voted for any more than the the Hard Brexiteers can claim that is what people voted for.

 

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

5500 car manufacturing jobs lost in the UK in only 3 days.

And that's only the start. 

Bridgend....what a shower of f*cking fannies. How's Brexit working out for you ? 

[doulikefish]

7 minutes ago, Bob Mahelp said:

5500 car manufacturing jobs lost in the UK in only 3 days.

And that's only the start. 

Bridgend....what a shower of f*cking fannies. How's Brexit working out for you ? 

Its all the Eu's fault for wage stagnation etc etc according to the corbynista

[Cerberus]

5500 car manufacturing jobs lost in the UK in only 3 days.
And that's only the start. 
Bridgend....what a shower of f*cking fannies. How's Brexit working out for you ? 

They probably think it was worth it to get rid of black people and give the EU a black eye.