The_Kincardine Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Adding more grammar schools is a bit of a hot topic down here and has generated a lot of heat from typical left and right wing folk. Is there any appetite for reintroducing selective (on academic ability) education back to Scotland? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I'm all for it. Can't have thick kids holding bright kids back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1 minute ago, Romeo said: I'm all for it. Can't have thick kids holding bright kids back. You should write a book about your experience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon EF Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I'm against them. The 'academic selection' boils down in large part to whose parents will put in the time, effort and resources to train their kids up for the 11+. Kids already study for up to 4 years for the things. Heard some guy on Any Questions tonight say that education in the UK is already very good at setting up academically gifted kids for getting through school, university and beyond. It's the kids at the lower end who need more help. I agree with that entirely. Let's be honest, a bright kid with supportive parents should be sailing through school and into uni. Comprehensive education isn't holding these kids back and they're the ones grammars are designed to advantage. Middle class parents in England like them because it saves them having to sell the 2nd property to fund private schooling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Grammar Schools already exist in Scotland. They've got one in Hamilton & Uddy for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Zen Archer said: You should write a book about your experience. Wouldn't be fair on the thick kids. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 37 minutes ago, Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo said: Grammar Schools already exist in Scotland. They've got one in Hamilton & Uddy for a start. Aye ok.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 2 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said: Aren't they fee-paying though? Not that I know of. I didn't receive a penny. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 Just now, Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo said: Not that I know of. I didn't receive a penny. I amended my post...I thought you were referring to the fee-paying school in Hamilton. "Hamilton Grammar" is some johnny-come-lately amalgam of the old Hamilton Academy and St Johns as both felt they had to join forces to try and beat Dalziel from Motherwell at rugby back in the 1970s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WaffenThinMint Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, The_Kincardine said: Adding more grammar schools is a bit of a hot topic down here and has generated a lot of heat from typical left and right wing folk. Is there any appetite for reintroducing selective (on academic ability) education back to Scotland? It's been going on for years up here thanks to selective manipulation of the catchment area system. Back in the days of Thatcher, Paisley Grammar got the Iron Lady's specific intervention to stop the old Strathclyde Regional Council from widening their long out of date catchment area so they were able to pick & choose those pupils they took in to "top up" from other areas. A lot of people booed when Jordanhill (famous as the school used in Trainspotting) became one of the so-called "directly funded" schools (which took the piss to the extent they even went into partnership with Glasgow Academy to buy up some of the old Laurel Bank/Laurel Park buildings after its anschluß with Hutchie), but at least they showed more honesty that those within Glasgow Labour who conspired (to appear Cardinal Winning) to allow Notre Dame High being allowed to continue to operate as a single sex for much the same reasons others jerrymandered the catchment system. Ask anyone that went through state education & they'll tell you of the one primary and one secondary school in the area that got money flung at it by the council whilst the rest scraped by. There's been "some are more equal than others" in the state system since the start, & creating grammar schools is merely going to rubber stamp what anyone with eyes to see knew what's been going on for decades. But if Maggie May thinks it's going to change a bloody thing about education standards, she's in for a rude awakening. Of course, the real purpose for all this is political, not the welfare of the kids. Dick Crossman vowed to abolish "every fking grammar school" because it was destroying the link between the intelligent working class & the Labour Party - giving more of their children the chance of far greater social mobility rather than being doomed to the same lives & aspirations their parents had (& their parents before them). It didn't seem to dawn on Crossman & his ilk that having future generations of the haves and have nots of similar intelligence levels growing up together pushed down more class barriers than it created. It may have put some noses out of joint in the council estates, but in the long run it meant a more sympathetic generation of management, politicians, etc; the myth of "one nation" and Butskellism which made such civilising ideas such as the Welfare State elevated national treasures & free tertiary education beyond question of anyone but the most selfish & unpatriotic of black hat scoundrel. Comprehensive education re-entrenched the class divide it was mean to break, just as the economy was about to take its most sour turn since the 1930s. The effect has been long and disastrous. Now Maggie May wants them brought back probably hoping it will be the long term final nail in Labour's coffin, as if Blair & "New Labour" never happened. Different world, different society - I expect it will backfire on the Tories, but to what political result is anyone's guess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 What actually is a grammar school? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1 minute ago, The_Kincardine said: I amended my post...I thought you were referring to the fee-paying school in Hamilton. "Hamilton Grammar" is some johnny-come-lately amalgam of the old Hamilton Academy and St Johns as both felt they had to join forces to try and beat Dalziel from Motherwell at rugby back in the 1970s. I think Uddingston Grammar (well before my time) was an 'actual' Grammar school where the brightest from a wider area came from to get a quality education. That's what my parents (who weren't from Uddingston and went there) tell me anyway. Didn't do them any harm. They had me for a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romeo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Never mind fee paying, private or grammar schools. Faith based schools should be burned to the ground. they are the real problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Archer (Raconteur) Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 6 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: What actually is a grammar school? It's an educational establishment where they only teach two r's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Kincardine Posted September 9, 2016 Author Share Posted September 9, 2016 56 minutes ago, Gordon EF said: I'm against them. The 'academic selection' boils down in large part to whose parents will put in the time, effort and resources to train their kids up for the 11+. Kids already study for up to 4 years for the things. Studying for up to 4 years is an exaggeration. My son's at a Grammar school. He did tuition on Saturday mornings for 9 months and I paid about £1,500. It suits him. He's good academically and likes egg-chasing. The lassies go to an excellent comp and that suits them too - they are more social and less nerdy than my son. I'd be happy with selective education to an extent - provided the non-selective schools are of a good standard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joey Jo Jo Junior Shabadoo Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 8 minutes ago, John Lambies Doos said: What actually is a grammar school? Kinky runs one 24 hours a day on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dorlomin Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 When most of the technical jobs were able to be supplied by the children of the middle class the grammar system was able to cream off some of the brightest of the working class to allow "social mobility". Now there is a much greater demand for a technically literate work force there is a need for a much greater proportion of the working class\lower incomes whatever you call it to have to have the skills base to enter the workforce as technically skilled workers. The "morals" of the grammar school are shyte. The economic consequences (constrictions of the skilled work force) worse. When the middle income voters are invested in the success of average schools the government will find ways for the pupils of average schools to succeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Lambies Doos Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 Ffs lads it was a genuine question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael W Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 1 hour ago, Gordon EF said: Middle class parents in England like them because it saves them having to sell the 2nd property to fund private schooling. It'll be more that they can't afford to live next to the "good" schools. Some even go as far as committing "catchment fraud" - renting a house near a good school for a few months to try and get their kids in. The admissions system down here is an absolute joke. Basically, I went to the school that I was in the catchment for and was guaranteed a place. You could go elsewhere, but this was very rare. Down here, you'll be in the catchment for several schools, and everyone tries to get their kids into the ones rated well by OFSTED and tries to avoid the poorer schools. The result is a predictable farce. The schooling system needs changed, but I'm not convinced this is the way to do it. Schools selecting purely on ability would transcend class barriers in theory, but the vast majority of those kids who fail the 11+ and don't get in will be those who weren't tutored for it - most probably because of affordability issues. I don't think it'll manage to do what may wants it to do. This'll end up in the bin anyway when the inevitable teacher revolt happens and strikes are threatened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tamthebam Posted September 9, 2016 Share Posted September 9, 2016 I bet they actually do f*ck all teaching of grammar at these so called "grammar" schools. It's a disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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