Shanner Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 4 minutes ago, Ivo den Bieman said: Scots are very conservative-with-a-small-c folk. We don't like change all that much, especially fundamental change of the type you (quite rightly) are advocating. I like the junior grade and respect the history and traditional associated with it. If history and tradition is allowed to contunue to trump moving with the times, the junior game will become a fossilised irrelevance. I'm fine with junior clubs entering the Scottish Cup, it's just frustrating that their engagement with the senior ranks is reduced to that marginal status. It'd be great to see the likes of Auchinleck, Beith, Clydebank, Linlithgow, Bonnyrigg, Pollok, Kelty all having the chance to climb a unified pyramid. It's a long way off though. Very true about the mindset. There are progressive people involved in the clubs who do a lot of work developing their grounds and stuff but organisationally the Juniors is as crappy as it gets and that clearly isn't due to change any time soon. Culturally we just accept broken practices because that's just the way things have always been done. Even though most junior fans broadly agree that things need to improve - and a functioning model exists in the form of the LL - most will trot out the usual objections on the basis of soullessness, teams having no history, and other intangibles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitburn exile Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 there is a much bigger issue here ad that I how to improve Scottish football overall and that means a proper pyramid, clubs and local councils and Holyrood working together with the SFA to improve facilities and coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sx Drugz N Martin Jol Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Who are the best 3 junior sides at the moment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 17 minutes ago, jimbaxters said: Of course there is an inherent charm about toddling into your home town team's park on a Saturday, seeing all your pals and spending under a tenner to have a shout at the ref. But people fail to see that the sport is changing, or has changed. Big matches like Talbot v Pollok or Beith v Talbot are a draw but 90% of the game is on the bones of it's bum. I miss the Juniors like mad but it won't survive for many more years. I can't for the life of me see how most of these posters who are attending games every week (I'm not) can't see it, or more likely, refuse to. My man, I do actually get your concern and agree that if something is not done then the Junior game will eventually become an irrelevance. I also get the point about entrenched views on both sides on another post. However, I don't go along with the big fish in a small pond accusation. There is no way a club like Talbot who, in the Junior Grade, could be a base model on how to run a successful progressive Part time club. They would have been mad to go anywhere near the proposals that eventually became the LL, which was ill conceived and rushed. I would actually argue that, rather than big fish in small pond, we have to many small fish in the big pond. There are too many wee clubs clinging on for dear life to their senior status and will never vote for the type of change required to rejuvenate football at all levels in this country. The top level should have two leagues, league one should be full time, no club should be in it unless they can legitametly go full time. League two should have criteria involving grounds being at Silver Licence status. All the rest should be non league and regional like Germany. There should be progression routes to the top. This proposal would stop the nonsense of having teams who have absolutely no support playing in the seniors. Every club would find their true level in this. I would advocate a national non league trophy like in England. Talbot would, in my opinion, be somewhere near the top of the non league, a realistic place for them to be. Sorry but Edinburgh City going into the seniors really just highlights the consummate over ambition together with the man mind thyself attitude of tiny clubs with senior status. These proposals will never ever happen, but if it doesn't, or something like it, it won't just be Junior Football that will become an irrelevance, the whole of Scottish football will! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugget man Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Where's the ambition ?? a cup run can be a welcome distraction and an opportunity to gain from the potential publicity both on and off the park i think junior sides should be in the scottish cup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talbot Bing Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 The juniors have been equally arrogant when it comes to the pyramid setup. Both sides are now firmly entrenched in their thinking so sadly I can't see any compromise being made by either side now. Always open to compromise my friend. Think you're getting arrogance within the juniors set up mixed with history, fanbase and decent set-ups Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Burton Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 The Lowland league was two years in the making so I can't agree that it was rushed. It would have been great if the juniors had been on board but they couldn't wait indefinitely to get things up and running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whitburn exile Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 I live in Lincoln I have a few non league teams to follow all at various levels of non league with Lincoln City sitting top currently of the national non league. They are a full time club who over recent years have become more involved in the community, like wise are Lincoln Utd further down. Boston Utd were in the national league but ended up relegated and now play in the national north league and no should the gain promotion they will have to travel from there to Wrexham to down on the south coast. Each club is at the correct level and if they want to work up the leagues they know exactly what to do in terms of facilities as well. There is also the FA vase trophy for non league teams and Lincoln are playing a team well down the pyramid called Shaw Labe association based in Barsnley. For them playing Lincoln will give them a boost in terms of playing one of the top non league teams and also financial. point is there is a proper set up and clubs will find their level. The difference is down here more clubs can be full time due to the cash around TV deals but in Scotland they cant as it is a much smaller pond and teams and fans at various levels need to realise that. So what is needed is a complete overhaul of how the game is run and finances distributed until then football in Scotland will die on its arsewith the exception of a few clubs in the premiership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 11 minutes ago, Jack Burton said: The Lowland league was two years in the making so I can't agree that it was rushed. It would have been great if the juniors had been on board but they couldn't wait indefinitely to get things up and running. That's as maybe, it took two years to get up and running, but all the decision had been more or less made. As I said a highly successful Junior club with a big fan base would have been gambling big style to go near it, it was just not an arractive proposal. Decisions were taken quickly and it was ill conceived. A regional non league incorarating EOS, SOS, Junior and HL with a national trophy and play off between all top regional league winners. Access to the top but only with criteria in place to insure what ever club goes up actually brings something to the senior table. Now, had this been on offer then I'm sure the big Junior clubs would have been all ears. What we actually got was a stitch up which suited some clubs and the SFA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sx Drugz N Martin Jol Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 My man, I do actually get your concern and agree that if something is not done then the Junior game will eventually become an irrelevance. I also get the point about entrenched views on both sides on another post. However, I don't go along with the big fish in a small pond accusation. There is no way a club like Talbot who, in the Junior Grade, could be a base model on how to run a successful progressive Part time club. They would have been mad to go anywhere near the proposals that eventually became the LL, which was ill conceived and rushed. I would actually argue that, rather than big fish in small pond, we have to many small fish in the big pond. There are too many wee clubs clinging on for dear life to their senior status and will never vote for the type of change required to rejuvenate football at all levels in this country. The top level should have two leagues, league one should be full time, no club should be in it unless they can legitametly go full time. League two should have criteria involving grounds being at Silver Licence status. All the rest should be non league and regional like Germany. There should be progression routes to the top. This proposal would stop the nonsense of having teams who have absolutely no support playing in the seniors. Every club would find their true level in this. I would advocate a national non league trophy like in England. Talbot would, in my opinion, be somewhere near the top of the non league, a realistic place for them to be. Sorry but Edinburgh City going into the seniors really just highlights the consummate over ambition together with the man mind thyself attitude of tiny clubs with senior status. These proposals will never ever happen, but if it doesn't, or something like it, it won't just be Junior Football that will become an irrelevance, the whole of Scottish football will! ^^^ this ???????? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JIML Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 2 hours ago, Isabel Goudie said: My man, I do actually get your concern and agree that if something is not done then the Junior game will eventually become an irrelevance. I also get the point about entrenched views on both sides on another post. However, I don't go along with the big fish in a small pond accusation. There is no way a club like Talbot who, in the Junior Grade, could be a base model on how to run a successful progressive Part time club. They would have been mad to go anywhere near the proposals that eventually became the LL, which was ill conceived and rushed. I would actually argue that, rather than big fish in small pond, we have to many small fish in the big pond. There are too many wee clubs clinging on for dear life to their senior status and will never vote for the type of change required to rejuvenate football at all levels in this country. The top level should have two leagues, league one should be full time, no club should be in it unless they can legitametly go full time. League two should have criteria involving grounds being at Silver Licence status. All the rest should be non league and regional like Germany. There should be progression routes to the top. This proposal would stop the nonsense of having teams who have absolutely no support playing in the seniors. Every club would find their true level in this. I would advocate a national non league trophy like in England. Talbot would, in my opinion, be somewhere near the top of the non league, a realistic place for them to be. Sorry but Edinburgh City going into the seniors really just highlights the consummate over ambition together with the man mind thyself attitude of tiny clubs with senior status. These proposals will never ever happen, but if it doesn't, or something like it, it won't just be Junior Football that will become an irrelevance, the whole of Scottish football will! Great post isa and exactly the way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 7 hours ago, Talbot Bing said: The way the SFA beaks have made the qualifying set up to get into the cup makes it harder for the juniors clubs to set a good example nowadays. It's as if they have deliberately done it in order to reduce embarrassment for the senior teams so their fans don't scream blue murder if they are beaten or draw with a "wee diddy"team ? They've made changes to the early stages of the cup so only tiers 1-5 of the pyramid enter directly into the competition proper, and unlicensed clubs must start in the first preliminary. It has its flaws - I disagree with details - but it's not discriminatory against Juniors in particular and any Junior who'd joined (or joins) HL or LL, or got (or gets) licensed, reap a reward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edinabear Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 I think it's inevitable that the LL will be restructured in to East and West and at that stage we will see the Junior sides coming across and also amalgamating with EofS and SofS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PtB Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Putting aside all the arguments about some clubs holding their own against higher up clubs, JUNIOR teams shouldn't be in the SENIOR cup. The Scottish Football Association Challenge Cup, commonly known as the Scottish Cup, is an annual association football knock-out cup competition for men's football clubs in Scotland. The competition was first held in 1873–74. Entry is open to all clubs with full or associate membership of the Scottish Football Association (SFA). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HibeeJibee Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 13 minutes ago, PtB said: The Scottish Football Association Challenge Cup, commonly known as the Scottish Cup, is an annual association football knock-out cup competition for men's football clubs in Scotland. The competition was first held in 1873–74. Entry is open to all clubs with full or associate membership of the Scottish Football Association (SFA). If that's Wikipedia it's been wrong since 2007, of course, and until then some had to qualify. Since 2007 some registered member qualifiers came in, and no associate status now (plus full = licensed). e.g.Entry is open to all clubs with full membership of the Scottish Football Association (SFA); the winners of the Senior leagues at tier 6 of the Scottish pyramid system; the winners of the Junior leagues and cup; and the winner of the Amateur cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
not man of the match Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 It's maybe wrong but I reckon the point is there is nothing that says only Senior clubs can play in the competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeeKRR1878 Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 Quite a lot of junior teams have bigger attendances than a lot of senior teams. Just need to look at the likes of Talbot, Pollok, Linlithgow to name a few Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pheasant plucker Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 The only notable outcome of this thread, after I woke up from reading previous, is that Leonard Sachs is alive and well in Isa G.The Juniors will do for me in whatever shape or form. Unbeatable value for admission money Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manintheknow Posted December 4, 2016 Share Posted December 4, 2016 After the embarrassment of Morton beating Scotland's secend best Junior After Beith setting us back 20 years when they were humiliated by a no entity, Has the big cup hold any real interest I'd imagine this post will go up in the Beith dressing room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipple burn Posted December 4, 2016 Author Share Posted December 4, 2016 "f**k did I write that?" I was pissed as a newt last night. I better go and check Facebook because I vaguely remember being on that too. Sorry Beith! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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