Kris Boyd & Jamie Fullarton

[theoriginalhedge]

1 hour ago, vikingTON said:

 

Barry Ferguson wouldn't have been a cheaper option at Clyde than some League Two managerial veteran. Nor Paul Hartley at Alloa. I think that the Hartley case in particular has sold to a lot of Scottish clubs the idea that they'll unearth a managerial genius in the dying days of his playing career, get a few good seasons from him and make a healthy profit; either from moving up divisions or their manager's contract being bought out. The 35 year old manager at the moment is similar to signing a released youth striker from a big team, with the same aims for the club.

It's bollocks though, because the majority of them simply fail.
 

 

We have given 2 rookies their chance  in recent years who haven't failed .  One is now an international  manager, the other is a potential one. So not always bollocks !  

Edit.  To completely counter that though we did have Dick Campbell .....twice !!!  

[Diamonds are Forever]

8 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

Some of the dinosaurs have been snapped up by the SFA to run the coaching courses, so rest assured the run roond the park 10 times till yer sick style of pre season training will be here for a wee while yet.  

 

I was going to comment that compared to the clubs the SFA undoubtedly has much more of a jobs for the boys culture with plenty in there with prehistoric attitudes. They have made some half arsed attempts to change things like bringing in Mark Wotte, but predictably the horrendous culture and resistance to change that exists within the SFA meant he didn't last very long.

[Heart of Northern]

8 minutes ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

Certainly compared to most of the guys who get managerial jobs these days, and guys who are touted for jobs, I have absolutely no problem with Cathro getting the job as he is vastly more qualified than them. I still feel managers who get to that level should really already have plenty managerial experience, however in the absence of that the experience he does have undoubtedly elevates him beyond Kris Boyd types who have nothing other than some coaching badges that anyone with enough time and money can get.

It's probably as good an environment as he could hope to go into though. Levein will give him plenty of support and already has the respect of the players, it seems a pretty young group, and even if he wasn't very good I can't really see them finishing below 4th anyway so it would be pretty difficult for him to fail in any way that would discredit him. Of course on the flip side you could argue that after this season it's going to be hard to finish above 3rd, and definitely never above 2nd, so given they are 4th just now there's not really much room for improvement (in terms of league position) either.

League placing won't be the most important factor while still important 

Others like style of football, how the progress of the younger players,cup runs etc will be taken into consideration. 

Mind finish in bottom 6 and he'll ken about it.  

[Diamonds are Forever]

14 minutes ago, theoriginalhedge said:

We have given 2 rookies their chance  in recent years who haven't failed .  One is now an international  manager, the other is a potential one. So not always bollocks !  

 

Need to be careful though as currently 7 out of 10 managers in League One are first time managers (again just shows the 'dinosaur' manager culture is complete nonsense as even at seaside league level clubs no longer want 'old school' managers). Apart from Peterhead all the sides that realistically have squads to challenge for promotion have first time managers, so they could all be horrendous managers but one of them will still end up winning the league! It doesn't mean that a first time manager is the way to go, it just means that you are almost guaranteed for some to be successful now because there are so many.

[theoriginalhedge]

3 minutes ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

Need to be careful though as currently 7 out of 10 managers in League One are first time managers (again just shows the 'dinosaur' manager culture is complete nonsense as even at seaside league level clubs no longer want 'old schoo' managers). Apart from Peterhead all the sides that realistically have squads to challenge for promotion have first time managers, so they could all be horrendous managers but one of them will still end up winning the league! It doesn't mean that a first time manager is the way to go, it just means that you are almost guaranteed for some to be successful now because there are so many.

You may have a point.  Saying that though, you can usually tell at an early stage if a rookie has the work ethic to continually improve. Some make an immediate impact with their initial enthusiasm but then run out of ideas.  Gary Bolan is the perfect example.  He is a dinosaur in the making. 

[ayrmad]

5 hours ago, Diamonds are Forever said:

 

What full-time Scottish club has a 'dinosaur' in charge of them at the moment? Out of 20 of them, Motherwell probably, Duffy maybe fits that stereotype but he's done a superb job at Morton so can hardly criticise him for that.It's a complete myth that Scottish management jobs go to, as you put it, dinosaurs. In fact it has never been harder for managers like that to get a job up here, the trend is to go for under qualified, under experienced recently retired players who have - albeit superficially - 'philosophies'. 

They don't need to be old gnarled codgers to be dinosaurs, Boyd is a young man in managerial terms and he's quite clearly a dinosaur, most of the ex pros I've heard on this subject are relatively young in managerial terms, it's the mindset that makes them dinosaurs not their age or years served in management.

[ayrmad]

5 hours ago, vikingTON said:

Duffy has been a dinosaur largely from a tactical point of view; even he has finally ditched the Mike Bassett, "4-4--2 with two wingers" approach now. Which has coincided with his team overperforming. His coaching of players isn't really in doubt, which is why a former League One dud like Ricki Lamie is now a comfortable Championship level player.

I fully agree with the general point though. Scottish football clubs have in fact been very resilient to the idea of reusing older managers - dinosaurs or not - to fill vacant posts. Jimmy Calderwood for example has a very good CV on paper, couched with the money he spunked to achieve large parts of it of course , but it's still a remarkable fact and testament to the general mood in Scottish football that he has been shut out of senior management for years.

The major criticism I'd make is that in place of the dinosaurs Scottish clubs are far too open to letting 30-something ex-professionals with no credible experience manage them instead; it has swung to the opposite extreme. Aspiring managers should either be working their way up through the backroom staff at a much higher level than the club they start managing, or demonstrating their management skills in the regional leagues before earning that job. That's what Peter Weatherson appears to be attempting at Shettleston Juniors, which is a far more credible start to an ex-professional career in football than bitching and whining on the national media outlets until a senior team hands you a job.

Ray McKinnon's doing fine after taking that route.

[YassinMoutaouakil]

 

What full-time Scottish club has a 'dinosaur' in charge of them at the moment? Out of 20 of them, Motherwell probably

I wouldn't even call McGhee a dinosaur tbf. He's always been pretty insistent on attractive attacking football and interplay from our forwards, and is doing a decent job developing and bringing through youth. Definitely one of the more tactically flexible managers in the league as well, probably to his own peril at times.

[DA Baracus]

It seems to me that a lot of managers/coaches in Scotland do their badges at Largs then think that's it. So many don't seem to realise that all the badges are (aside from a tick box exercise) are a foundation. Good coaches will build upon this foundation and innovate. They'll go to other countries to see how things work there. They'll study case examples at successful clubs. They'll keep up to date on sports technology. They'll speak to experienced and successful managers and ask the right questions. They'll work under various managers and set ups.

Krs Boyd strikes me as someone who did the badges and thinks that he doesn't need to do anymore. It's typical of the lazy approach so many footballers in Scotland have (the type of guys who finish training at 12 or 1 and then f**k off to the bookies or home for a packet of crisps). 

[thisGRAEME]

16 minutes ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I wouldn't even call McGhee a dinosaur tbf. He's always been pretty insistent on attractive attacking football and interplay from our forwards, and is doing a decent job developing and bringing through youth. Definitely one of the more tactically flexible managers in the league as well, probably to his own peril at times.

I was just about to post something similar. Given the stuff that we're doing off the field as well, I'd be pretty reluctant to brand McGhee a 'dinosaur', as he's embraced various bits of tech off the field, which has led to improvements on it. In addition to the tactical flexibility and his willingness to play young players, I wouldn't say that's entirely fair.

[TheScarf]

22 minutes ago, DA Baracus said:

Krs Boyd strikes me as someone who did the badges and thinks that he doesn't need to do anymore. It's typical of the lazy approach so many footballers in Scotland have (the type of guys who finish training at 12 or 1 and then f**k off to the bookies or home for a packet of crisps). 

Yep.  He seems like the epitome of this attitude.  Bookies or the snooker club ( a favourite of some of the Caley team about 10 years or so ago).

[capt_oats]

1 hour ago, YassinMoutaouakil said:

I wouldn't even call McGhee a dinosaur tbf. He's always been pretty insistent on attractive attacking football and interplay from our forwards, and is doing a decent job developing and bringing through youth. Definitely one of the more tactically flexible managers in the league as well, probably to his own peril at times.

 

24 minutes ago, thisGRAEME said:

I was just about to post something similar. Given the stuff that we're doing off the field as well, I'd be pretty reluctant to brand McGhee a 'dinosaur', as he's embraced various bits of tech off the field, which has led to improvements on it. In addition to the tactical flexibility and his willingness to play young players, I wouldn't say that's entirely fair.

Much the same here. It's fair comment to say that McGhee can come across as an arsehole from time to time and his public attitude towards the "Old Firm" is definitely a bit archaic however broadly speaking he's shown a preference to playing an attacking 433 both in his previous and current stints as manager. He's regularly highlighted the positive work that Andy Boles does with both first team and 20s in strength and conditioning while both he and Craigan have been regularly citing the data analysis side of things when discussing performance.

Beyond that whether by choice or necessity we've seen him giving minutes to; Hall, Cadden, MacLean, McMillan, Thomas, Ferguson, Mackin, Campbell, Hastie and Watt while Turnbull and Fry have both made the bench on match days. He was also suggesting that if it wasn't for his age he'd have liked to have got Semple involved more. It's fair to say that Cadden has improved hugely under McGhee, while McMillan, MacLean and Hastie seem to be on a similar path. Considering where we were in respect of integrating youth development and first team football under McCall and Johansson then we look like a far more progressive outfit in terms of outlook and structure presently than we have in years.

[Dindeleux]

I actually didnt see too much wrong with what Boyd said.

A lot of it was his personal opinion and fact.

If Cathro does well Boyd looks daft, if he fails then Boyd is justified.

[Compliment Sandwich]

Article on the BBC website about Cathro says he met Nuno Santo whilst on his coaching course at Largs - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38201728

I wonder what Boyd was up to at this point of the course when the shy loaner Cathro was speaking to coaches from further afield than the west coast of Scotland.

[DC92]

On 12/8/2016 at 09:36, capt_oats said:

His argument about "he's never been in a dressing room and had to stand up to players" overlooks the notion that perhaps (by design?) the Hearts dressing room isn't filled with arseholes like Boyd and his ilk. The average age of their squad is around 25, their captain is 24, Djoum aside their key players are all early 20s indeed did Souttar not cite Cathro as an influence on his development at United? Assuming guys like him are in the dressing room and on board with Cathro as a coach then if he's effective in that role then he's making a good first impression. A coach who has made his name developing young players behind given a role where his remit is to get the best out of a talented group of young players, I can't see how that'll work.

Yep. It'd be a genuine concern if the attitude of Boyd, Fullarton, Craigan etc. was reflected in the dressing room, but we punted the likes of Jamie Hamill and Ryan Stevenson two years ago and have since made a point of generally signing players who have a "good character", as Levein and Neilson put it. Can anyone actually see Kitchen, Djoum, Johnsen, Cowie, Rossi, Ozturk etc. causing problems because Cathro hasn't racked up a few hundred appearances for Kilmarnock or Motherwell? We obviously do have a few players who probably fit the thick footballer stereotype but, as you say, they're younger and probably more likely to be open-minded about Cathro, especially given the John Souttar connection.

[DC92]

19 minutes ago, Dindeleux said:

I actually didnt see too much wrong with what Boyd said.

A lot of it was his personal opinion and fact.

If Cathro does well Boyd looks daft, if he fails then Boyd is justified.

So, a bit like any opinion piece then.

Good to know he'll be justified in making petty, weirdly personal criticisms of someone he doesn't know if Cathro doesn't do very well, though.

[KingBeastie]

25 minutes ago, capt_oats said:

Beyond that whether by choice or necessity we've seen him giving minutes to; Hall, Cadden, MacLean, McMillan, Thomas, Ferguson, Mackin, Campbell, Hastie and Watt while Turnbull and Fry have both made the bench on match days. He was also suggesting that if it wasn't for his age he'd have liked to have got Semple involved more.

When I think of the dinosaur type manager I don't think of them as never fielding young players or giving youth a chance.  Just because they belong to a certain mould of manager doesn't mean they only field old cloggers too.

I agree with the rest of your post and I didn't really have McGee in the dinosaur mould really anyway, but a few 'well fans have referred to the fielding of the young players as examples of being a modern manager.

Apologies if I am interpreting your post wrongly.

[sergie's no1 fan]

When Boyd was on the radio he sounded delighted at the stir up his article caused. It's the kind of reaction he and that rotten newspaper wanted.

To avoid these sort of shenanigans is just stop giving the attention seekers the time of day. I don't even mean just football, how the likes of Piers Morgan and Katie Hopkins are celebrities shows how fucked this island is.

[Dindeleux]

So, a bit like any opinion piece then.
Good to know he'll be justified in making petty, weirdly personal criticisms of someone he doesn't know if Cathro doesn't do very well, though.

I thought he was on a course with Cathro? If so I assume he knows the guy better than any of us do.

I'm not saying Boyds attitude to it is right and it is reflective of the old boys network in Scotland but to say he talking shite is a bit too much of an extreme. The proof will be in Hearts results.

[Dons_1988]

3 minutes ago, sergie's no1 fan said:

When Boyd was on the radio he sounded delighted at the stir up his article caused. It's the kind of reaction he and that rotten newspaper wanted.

To avoid these sort of shenanigans is just stop giving the attention seekers the time of day. I don't even mean just football, how the likes of Piers Morgan and Katie Hopkins are celebrities shows how fucked this island is.

This has always irritated me about Katie Hopkins.

Everytime she opens her mouth it is splashed all over social media with people getting irate, failing to understand that this is the only reason she gets any airtime whatsoever.