California as separate nation

[Deplorable]

12 hours ago, AUFC90 said:

No, a person who was born here and grew up here, regardless of where their grandparents are from, is as Scottish as me or anyone else. To suggest otherwise is ridiculous.

Ok. Let's unpack this. So you are saying that minorities in Scotland do not have distinct cultures? You are saying that if Scotland had 3 million people of Jamaican descent that you'd have roughly similar crime rates, birth rates, average number of sexual partners, divorce rates, savings rates, charitable giving, average work hours, unemployment rates, welfare rates, political party balance, home ownership rate, etc as is the case currently?

That's a fairly radical stance that you are taking.

5 hours ago, Ad Lib said:

Leaving aside the fringe-loon levels of the politics behind Calexit, the US Constitution prohibits secession. Read your Texas v White.

If a state voted to leave the Union with a fair vote, a decent majority, and respect for areas of the state wishing by large majorities to remain in the Union, do you think the Federal Government would send in the Army? That's illegal due to the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed after the Civil War and bans the US of the US Federal Army against US citizens within the territory of the US.

[AUFC90]

5 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

Ok. Let's unpack this. So you are saying that minorities in Scotland do not have distinct cultures? You are saying that if Scotland had 3 million people of Jamaican descent that you'd have roughly similar crime rates, birth rates, average number of sexual partners, divorce rates, savings rates, charitable giving, average work hours, unemployment rates, welfare rates, political party balance, home ownership rate, etc as is the case currently?

That's a fairly radical stance that you are taking.

If a state voted to leave the Union with a fair vote, a decent majority, and respect for areas of the state wishing by large majorities to remain in the Union, do you think the Federal Government would send in the Army? That's illegal due to the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed after the Civil War and bans the US of the US Federal Army against US citizens within the territory of the US.

I never said any of that. I'm not the one who would be happy separating entire states into different cultures. That's mental and you're most likely a racist or a nutter or both.

And don't try and use a country with 5.5 million people letting in 3 million immigrants as a means to justify your shite. That would be the equivalent of the US allowing in roughly 180 million immigrants 

[Deplorable]

1 minute ago, AUFC90 said:

I never said any of that. I'm not the one who would be happy separating entire states into different cultures. That's mental and you're most likely a racist or a nutter or both.

So you are saying that Scots of Jamaican descent are different on average in many ways from Scots whose heritage goes back thousands of years?

I'm not racist as I define it. I treat everyone equally until they give me a reason one way or the other to like or dislike them personally. I've actually gone out of my way and faced sanction to do this. Of course, according to wacky leftist notions of racism, it means noticing negative differences sometimes encouraged by certain cultures or opposing immigration levels that will push native people into the minority within a couple generations. I may be a nutter.

Again, what I think is that democracy functions best under the concept of a nation state, where a certain ethnic or cultural group forms the core of a state and is the overwhelming majority. I think that the majority of people are happier this way. And I think government functions better and for the benefit of all this way. I specifically think the way immigration has been done in the West has screwed over the native working class to an amazing extent. Now, this ideal is not always possible in the real world because in the real world people are all mixed up. But I see no reason why if you have a nation state with a core ethnic group that you should throw that away through a specific government policy of mass immigration. For instance, I don't think the Japanese people would be happier if they invited 5 million Russians, 5 million Chinese, 5 million Nigerians, and 5 million Americans to settle there permanently over the next 20 years.

[AUFC90]

Just now, Deplorable said:

So you are saying that Scots of Jamaican descent are different on average in many ways from Scots whose heritage goes back thousands of years?

I'm not racist as I define it. I treat everyone equally until they give me a reason one way or the other to like or dislike them personally. I've actually gone out of my way and faced sanction to do this. Of course, according to wacky leftist notions of racism, it means noticing negative differences sometimes encouraged by certain cultures or opposing immigration levels that will push native people into the minority within a couple generations. I may be a nutter.

Again, what I think is that democracy functions best under the concept of a nation state, where a certain ethnic or cultural group forms the core of a state and is the overwhelming majority. I think that the majority of people are happier this way. And I think government functions better and for the benefit of all this way. I specifically think the way immigration has been done in the West has screwed over the native working class to an amazing extent. Now, this ideal is not always possible in the real world because in the real world people are all mixed up. But I see no reason why if you have a nation state with a core ethnic group that you should throw that away through a specific government policy of mass immigration. For instance, I don't think the Japanese people would be happier if they invited 5 million Russians, 5 million Chinese, 5 million Nigerians, and 5 million Americans to settle there permanently over the next 20 years.

No, that's what you're saying. A Scot of Jamaican descent is Scot full stop, end of sentence. America has an overwhelming majority of white Americans and Scotland has an overwhelming majority of white Scots, no point inventing stuff to justify your bigotry. Just admit it.

[Deplorable]

24 minutes ago, AUFC90 said:

No, that's what you're saying. A Scot of Jamaican descent is Scot full stop, end of sentence. America has an overwhelming majority of white Americans and Scotland has an overwhelming majority of white Scots, no point inventing stuff to justify your bigotry. Just admit it.

White people will go below 50% in my lifetime. It was around 90% as recently as the 1970s. That's how quickly things change. I do believe that it is possible to assimilate a large majority of Hispanics and Asians into white American identity. Millions already have. But it's certainly not possible on a large scale if our current immigration system is retained.

Millions of Americans have been forced out of their areas by immigration. Entire major cities have emptied of all white people except the very rich and young people without kids. Our politics have radically changed. As was noted in this thread, pre-mass immigration Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon were elected governor of California before they were President. Both would struggle to gain 30% in California today. The change in population elected Obama. He would have struggled to gain 30% if our immigration system had not changed in the 1960s.

I would prefer that we shut down immigration and at least make an attempt to assimilate Hispanics and Asians fully into the traditional American identity, rather than have them exist as distinct cultures within a multi-cultural US. 

[Jacksgranda]

2 hours ago, Deplorable said:

 

 

If a state voted to leave the Union with a fair vote, a decent majority, and respect for areas of the state wishing by large majorities to remain in the Union, do you think the Federal Government would send in the Army? That's illegal due to the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed after the Civil War and bans the US of the US Federal Army against US citizens within the territory of the US.

But if California voted to eave the Union ( and left) it would surely no longer be within the territory of the US?

[McSpreader]

2 hours ago, AUFC90 said:

No, that's what you're saying. A Scot of Jamaican descent is Scot full stop, end of sentence. America has an overwhelming majority of white Americans and Scotland has an overwhelming majority of white Scots, no point inventing stuff to justify your bigotry. Just admit it.

Well, as someone who actually has many friends of Jamaican/West Indian descent from my Bristol/Cardiff days I can assure you they are proud to be British AND West Indian and do not lose sight of their roots. hey have a similar culture and moral code to White indigenous peoples of the UK and integrate fantastically well....but they are different and wonderfully so.

It's irrelevant anyway because Scotland will have a very large Asian/African Muslim population in just 10 years.. People from there are coming here in large numbers, have a high birth rate and are outperforming Scots......a recipe for harmony and success.......maybes/maybbes no'  It's well documented  that these folk integrate less well as culturally and morally there are vast differences in how, for example , their culture is patriarchial  , they generally don't allow alcohol and marrying across cultures is problematical .  It's a question of numbers and efforts, from both side, to engage and integrate.

Allowing too many peoples in from disparate cultures too quickly creates friction, problems, tension and conflict.....not just in Britain but ANYWHERE across the globe.....it's human nature, btw, before all the sanctimomious pr*cks come on here squealing their pish!

[welshbairn]

35 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

But if California voted to eave the Union ( and left) it would surely no longer be within the territory of the US?

And the Posse Comitatus Act doesn't say anything about the Navy and the Marines. The last time States tried to secede from the "indestructible Union" things got pretty violent.

[Jacksgranda]

3 hours ago, Deplorable said:

do you think the Federal Government would send in the Army? That's illegal due to the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed after the Civil War and bans the US of the US Federal Army against US citizens within the territory of the US.

 

20 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

And the Posse Comitatus Act doesn't say anything about the Navy and the Marines. The last time States tried to secede from the "indestructible Union" things got pretty violent.

See bolded bit in Deplorable's quote.

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

 

See bolded bit in Deplorable's quote.

I know, but the Posse Comitatus Act is about using the Army to enforce domestic law, it's not about secession. And anyway it doesn't stop Washington from using the Navy which has the Marines and their own air force. Not that I think they would use them if California voted for independence, it's just not true that they couldn't.

[calum_gers]

Well, as someone who actually has many friends of Jamaican/West Indian descent from my Bristol/Cardiff days I can assure you they are proud to be British AND West Indian and do not lose sight of their roots. hey have a similar culture and moral code to White indigenous peoples of the UK and integrate fantastically well....but they are different and wonderfully so.
It's irrelevant anyway because Scotland will have a very large Asian/African Muslim population in just 10 years.. People from there are coming here in large numbers, have a high birth rate and are outperforming Scots......a recipe for harmony and success.......maybes/maybbes no'  It's well documented  that these folk integrate less well as culturally and morally there are vast differences in how, for example , their culture is patriarchial  , they generally don't allow alcohol and marrying across cultures is problematical .  It's a question of numbers and efforts, from both side, to engage and integrate.
Allowing too many peoples in from disparate cultures too quickly creates friction, problems, tension and conflict.....not just in Britain but ANYWHERE across the globe.....it's human nature, btw, before all the sanctimomious pr*cks come on here squealing their pish!

Jesus, we better stop all those immigrants or at the next census Scotland will only be 95% white.

[Jacksgranda]

15 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I know, but the Posse Comitatus Act is about using the Army to enforce domestic law, it's not about secession. And anyway it doesn't stop Washington from using the Navy which has the Marines and their own air force. Not that I think they would use them if California voted for independence, it's just not true that they couldn't.

I was just being picky, anyway, I can't see it being an issue.

[Wee Willie]

12 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

I was just being picky, anyway, I can't see it being an issue.

and that's no like you

[Jacksgranda]

2 minutes ago, Wee Willie said:

and that's no like you

Quite so.  (My wife would probably agree with you...)

[topcat(The most tip top)]

I know, but the Posse Comitatus Act is about using the Army to enforce domestic law, it's not about secession. And anyway it doesn't stop Washington from using the Navy which has the Marines and their own air force. Not that I think they would use them if California voted for independence, it's just not true that they couldn't.

More to the point the current commander in chief doesn't seem to be the type who'd let details like the law stop him from doing whatever he felt like

[Ad Lib]

8 hours ago, Deplorable said:

If a state voted to leave the Union with a fair vote, a decent majority, and respect for areas of the state wishing by large majorities to remain in the Union, do you think the Federal Government would send in the Army? That's illegal due to the Posse Comitatus Act, which was passed after the Civil War and bans the US of the US Federal Army against US citizens within the territory of the US.

You've completely ignored the Insurrection Act, which specifically, and ever since PCA's inception, has exempted the putting down of rebellion, which unilateral secession in defiance of federal court orders would be.

[Deplorable]

1 minute ago, Ad Lib said:

You've completely ignored the Insurrection Act, which specifically, and ever since PCA's inception, has exempted the putting down of rebellion, which unilateral secession in defiance of federal court orders would be.

Interesting.

I know you like to get into the legal weeds, but what do you think would actually happen regardless of laws and court rulings from the 1800s? I'd assume if Scotland had tried to leave the UK 200 years ago England would have sent an army up, but not today.

[Ad Lib]

Just now, Deplorable said:

Interesting.

I know you like to get into the legal weeds, but what do you think would actually happen regardless of laws and court rulings from the 1800s? I'd assume if Scotland had tried to leave the UK 200 years ago England would have sent an army up, but not today.

They would use the Armed forces. The US has already sent in the National Guard in order to enforce the Civil Rights Act.

If Scotland deteriorated into a nation of rebellion or anarchy, I absolutely believe the UK would attempt first by means of law enforcement and secondly by military force if necessary, to detain the leaders of such a rebellion.

[Wee Willie]

7 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

They would use the Armed forces. The US has already sent in the National Guard in order to enforce the Civil Rights Act.

If Scotland deteriorated into a nation of rebellion or anarchy, I absolutely believe the UK would attempt first by means of law enforcement and secondly by military force if necessary, to detain the leaders of such a rebellion.

and you'd be cheering them on wearing your union jack suit and matching hat.

[welshbairn]

10 minutes ago, Ad Lib said:

They would use the Armed forces. The US has already sent in the National Guard in order to enforce the Civil Rights Act.

If Scotland deteriorated into a nation of rebellion or anarchy, I absolutely believe the UK would attempt first by means of law enforcement and secondly by military force if necessary, to detain the leaders of such a rebellion.

They sent tanks up to Glasgow in 1919. Trump would whatever he felt like and the military would go along with it.