California as separate nation

[The_Kincardine]

15 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Is California really totally different from the rest of America?

Cali could economically, socially and geographically separate itself from The US.  Parts of Washington and Oregon may want to join it, though.

[Deplorable]

2 hours ago, The_Kincardine said:

"Technically" eh?

California was technically part of the Viceroy of New Spain, but it was very sparsely settled and an entirely different world. When the people around the core of New Spain, what is now central Mexico, won independence California legally went along whether they wanted to or not. The Indians didn't want to be part of Mexico. The Spanish speakers didn't want to be part of Mexico and were constantly in conflict with the new Mexican government. The Anglos were living basically under their own local arrangements ignoring both the Mexicans and the local Spanish. Best number I can find is that there were probably around 10,000 Spanish speakers in what is now California during this time. Within a couple decades California was part of the US. It's up in the air whether the Spanish people there would have chosen Mexico or the US given a free choice. We do know that the Spanish in Texas preferred the US. It seems likely that the Spanish in California would have preferred independence from both, but that wasn't in the cards as they were too few.

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Aye, just like there were no Palestinians before the State of Israel. Makes you wonder why most of the cities and towns have Spanish names.

No. Obviously the Jews engaged in ethnic cleansing of Muslims to carve out certain portions of what became Israel.

The Spanish explored the area first. They left names.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

California was technically part of the Viceroy of New Spain, but it was very sparsely settled and an entirely different world. When the people around the core of New Spain, what is now central Mexico, won independence California legally went along whether they wanted to or not. The Indians didn't want to be part of Mexico. The Spanish speakers didn't want to be part of Mexico and were constantly in conflict with the new Mexican government. The Anglos were living basically under their own local arrangements ignoring both the Mexicans and the local Spanish. Best number I can find is that there were probably around 10,000 Spanish speakers in what is now California during this time. Within a couple decades California was part of the US. It's up in the air whether the Spanish people there would have chosen Mexico or the US given a free choice. We do know that the Spanish in Texas preferred the US. It seems likely that the Spanish in California would have preferred independence from both, but that wasn't in the cards as they were too few.

No. Obviously the Jews engaged in ethnic cleansing of Muslims to carve out certain portions of what became Israel.

The Spanish explored the area first. They left names.

They settled, and stayed. The concept of the nation state was a fairly late invention that was a bit meaningless when you were 2000 miles from Mexico City.

[Deplorable]

30 minutes ago, Fullerene said:

Is California really totally different from the rest of America?

I am no doubt that living in San Francisco is probably different to living in Kansas or Nebraska but isn't that true of most countries.

The US Electoral system suggests EVERBODY in California is a Democrat while EVERYBODY in Kansas is a Republican.
I suspect it is not that clear cut.

California had Arnold Schwarznegger as Governor (as well as Ronald Reagan come to think of it) - and Richard Nixon was from California as well.
Clint Eastwood was mayor of Carmel - imposing a staunch left wing agenda there - or have I got that wrong.

The white and black populations of California aren't too far off the white and black populations of the rest of the US. What's different is that California now has a huge Hispanic population, and that Hispanic population is well to the left of Hispanics in the rest of the the US. I haven't seen the breakdown from this specific election, but Hispanics in California vote Democrat at something approaching black levels. They are much more Republican in other states like Texas.

In the Reagan/Nixon governor eras California was a bit less than 80% white and a bit over 10% Hispanic. Now it's a bit less than 40% white and soon to be pushing 40% Hispanic. Add in that there's been for quite some time an outflow of native born Californians to other states. We are talking millions of people leaving. Working class whites would represent an outsized share of that number leaving as they search for opportunities that have disappeared in their home state. The type of working class white person who will move for a better opportunity is the prototypical Republican voter. That has also had an effect in moving the white population from solidly Republican to something close to parity between Republicans and Democrats.

[Deplorable]

19 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

They settled, and stayed. The concept of the nation state was a fairly late invention that was a bit meaningless when you were 2000 miles from Mexico City.

Right. This is all correct. 10,000 or so Spanish speaking people chose to make what became the US state of California their home during Spain's colonial rule.

I was responding to the idea that California should rejoin Mexico for historical reasons, even if TK's post was in jest.

[The_Kincardine]

6 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

Right. This is all correct. 10,000 or so Spanish speaking people chose to make what became the US state of California their home during Spain's colonial rule.

I was responding to the idea that California should rejoin Mexico for historical reasons, even if TK's post was in jest.

Tongue in cheek, chap.

I've enjoyed every visit I've made to Cali and would like to lasso San Fran (LA can GTF), Boston, NYC, Philly, Austin, Denver and Charleston in to one country of civilisation.  The rest of the US is inhabited by healthcare-denying, educationally subnormal rednecks.

[welshbairn]

8 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

Right. This is all correct. 10,000 or so Spanish speaking people chose to make what became the US state of California their home during Spain's colonial rule.

I was responding to the idea that California should rejoin Mexico for historical reasons, even if TK's post was in jest.

I don't see why a hoard of gold diggers arriving should negate the choice of Californians to chose to revert to their historical hegemony. They wouldn't need to of course, they could become independent and just make friendly trading deals with Canada, Mexico and rUS. Probably a bit like NAFTA.

[Deplorable]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I don't see why a hoard of gold diggers arriving should negate the choice of Californians to chose to revert to their historical hegemony. They wouldn't need to of course, they could become independent and just make friendly trading deals with Canada, Mexico and rUS. Probably a bit like NAFTA.

Those Californios disappeared as a distinct cultural group generations ago. Probably merged more with whites than with the later waves of Mexicans if I had to guess. The Mexicans there now are in no way related. If they want to be independent, so be it. But it would have everything to do with immigration to the US post-1960s, and zero to do with reclaiming California for their ancient inhabitants.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

Those Californios disappeared as a distinct cultural group generations ago. Probably merged more with whites than with the later waves of Mexicans if I had to guess. The Mexicans there now are in no way related. If they want to be independent, so be it. But it would have everything to do with immigration to the US post-1960s, and zero to do with reclaiming California for their ancient inhabitants.

I thought Nativism was your big thing? If you've got the right skin colour, f**k everyone else, no matter when you snuck in.

[Jacksgranda]

18 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I don't see why a hoard of gold diggers arriving should negate the choice of Californians to chose to revert to their historical hegemony. They wouldn't need to of course, they could become independent and just make friendly trading deals with Canada, Mexico and rUS. Probably a bit like NAFTA.

If you had a "hoard of gold diggers", would you have wealth off the radar?

[The_Kincardine]

9 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

Those Californios disappeared as a distinct cultural group generations ago. Probably merged more with whites than with the later waves of Mexicans if I had to guess. The Mexicans there now are in no way related. If they want to be independent, so be it. But it would have everything to do with immigration to the US post-1960s, and zero to do with reclaiming California for their ancient inhabitants.

Thank f**k I live in a country where "Scots" isn't a colour.

[welshbairn]

1 minute ago, Jacksgranda said:

If you had a "hoard of gold diggers", would you have wealth off the radar?

I was wary of Rangers fans getting upset by using the H word that is generally connected with the other H word.

Spoiler

Ok, I spelt it wrong. You win. I hate you.

 

[The_Kincardine]

3 minutes ago, Jacksgranda said:

If you had a "hoard of gold diggers", would you have wealth off the radar?

No no no.  He'd have wealth OF the radar:

 

[Cerberus]

4 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

Thank f**k I live in a country where "Scots" isn't a colour.

Scots is pale and pasty.

[Jacksgranda]

4 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

Scots is pale and pasty.

Many Scots are ruddy cheeked. Wearing the kilt is the cause.

[wastecoatwilly]

35 minutes ago, Deplorable said:

Those Californios disappeared as a distinct cultural group generations ago. Probably merged more with whites than with the later waves of Mexicans if I had to guess. The Mexicans there now are in no way related. If they want to be independent, so be it. But it would have everything to do with immigration to the US post-1960s, and zero to do with reclaiming California for their ancient inhabitants.

remember the alamo

 

[The_Kincardine]

11 minutes ago, Cerberus said:

Scots is pale and pasty.

You've clearly not been listening to The Archers this past week.

[Zen Archer (Raconteur)]

2 minutes ago, wastecoatwilly said:

remember the alamo

 

http://ultimateclassicrock.com/ozzy-osbourne-alamo-urinate/

[Gaz]

Thought this was about the wee village between Shieldhill and Avonbridge. I am disappoint

[Miguel Sanchez]

national anthem