Guest Captain Sensible Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 I don't think that Miller has been 'honking' for Scotland at all - as some folk have been saying. He's been playing and scoring goals regularly in the English Championship for some time now - so he's a proven goalscorer at a good level. When he's played for Scotland he's always looked good to me. We haven't created many chances so its been hard for him to score many goals! The problem is that unknowledgeable Scotland fans always clamour for young players playing in Scotland to get a game at the expense of guys playing at a higher level in England - that's always been the case over the years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPLwankwankwank Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Oh yeah, it's easy to say now he's the best thing since sliced bread. Kenny Miller, up until the last three or four games, has been honking for us. He's also nowhere near as good as what Mo Johnston was. He's done really well in the last few games, and I really hope he keeps that kind of form going for the rest of his international career, and then you can compare him to Johnston and the like. Remember, he had scored TWO goals in his first 20-odd games for Scotland, hardly the stuff of legend. I for one said after the away game in Italy that Miller should never play again. I'm certainly not 'hanging my head in shame' as that was my opinion at the time. Just as I said Davie Weir should never play again when he walked out. Things change though, and I'm glad that Scotland have stuck by him, as he looks like he's turned the corner. Whether that was luck in keeping him in, or tremendous vision, we'll never know. But I don't think you can really have a go at the people who wanted Miller out, as he really was awful at the time. You are a bitter man. Just say "sorry I got it REALLY wrong". Even the Captain got this one right and that's no doubt what you're finding hard to swallow about the whole sorry episode. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thundermonkey Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 You are a bitter man. Just say "sorry I got it REALLY wrong". Even the Captain got this one right and that's no doubt what you're finding hard to swallow about the whole sorry episode. 668633[/snapback] How about a pat on the back for Walter Smith as well then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scary Bear Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 The last couple of games have been as well as i've seen Scotland play for years. Walter Smith has done an excellent job so far. It will take a miracle to qualify, personally I cant see it given the fixtures Norway have left. However, the fact qualification is even still being talked about after games against Italy and Norway is a credit to the turnaround that Smith has overseen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 You are a bitter man. Just say "sorry I got it REALLY wrong". Even the Captain got this one right and that's no doubt what you're finding hard to swallow about the whole sorry episode. 668633[/snapback] I never got it wrong though. He was poor for Scotland. His first touch was abysmal. His scoring record was awful. Now all of a sudden, he's hit a wee purple patch, and everyone thinks he's Ronaldo. As I said before, for Scotland's sake, I really hope he keeps it up, but to point and laugh at people for saying he was poor before this, is incredibly off the mark. Here is a man who has scored only about 40 goals in over 130 league games for Wolves, most of which have been in the league below the Premiership, had scored 2 goals in 20 games at International level up until a few weeks ago, and who was red rotten in the games against Italy, Moldova, and Belarus. I'm as made up as anyone that he looks a much better player now, but lets not kid on this has always been the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Sensible Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 I never got it wrong though. You did. He was poor for Scotland. He wasn't. His first touch was abysmal. It wasn't His scoring record was awful. It wasn't Here is a man who has scored only about 40 goals in over 130 league games for Wolves, To be accurate, he's scored 40 league goals in 101 league starts. In all competitions he's scored 50 goals in 117 starts for Wolves. most of which have been in the league below the Premiership, So? Apart from Paul Dickov (injured) and Andy Gray (only just moved to Premiership), ALL our strikers play in leagues which are below Premiership standard. had scored 2 goals in 20 games at International level up until a few weeks ago, and who was red rotten in the games against Italy, Moldova, and Belarus. Some of those games have been where he started on the bench. I'm as made up as anyone that he looks a much better player now, but lets not kid on this has always been the case. 668690[/snapback] Kenny Miller has always done a good job for Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest ferguson Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 I was impressed and am proud of last nights game, it was well deserved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 "His scoring record was awful" It wasn't Maybe 2 goals in 20 games is good for a St Mirren striker, but it really is kinda pants at International level. There is NO argument against this, whatever your opinion him as a player is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Sensible Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Maybe 2 goals in 20 games is good for a St Mirren striker, but it really is kinda pants at International level. There is NO argument against this, whatever your opinion him as a player is. 668775[/snapback] Disagree entirely. For a start, Miller actually only started 12 of those games. And international football is very difficult to score goals in - especially when Scotland don't create many chances. In addition, goals come on a randon chance basis - you can only really view a striker's goalscoring record over a long run. I think if you look at Kenny Miller's goalscoring record now then it looks okay to me. Kenny Miller hasn't suddenly turned into a world beater - but nor was he bad before. Its just that some folk don't watch or understand football properly.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skyline Drifter Posted September 8, 2005 Author Share Posted September 8, 2005 Maybe 2 goals in 20 games is good for a St Mirren striker, but it really is kinda pants at International level. There is NO argument against this, whatever your opinion him as a player is. 668775[/snapback] You're "kinda" fond of quoting this 2 in 20 stat too despite the fact you've more than once been asked how many of those 20 were as a sub? Fact is Henry, van Nostelrooy and Owen wouldn't have outstanding goalscoring averages either if they were parked in front of our team under Vogts. And no that doesn't mean I'm suggesting he's at that level either. As I've suggested before in this thread, the fact that Miller has 4 in 3 doesn't make him a better striker than the fact he had 2 in whatever it was before that. Stats tell lies too. McFadden is statistically a better goalscorer. Does anyone genuinely, I mean REALLY, think McFadden is a better player and bigger goal threat than Miller? Miller may well be playing a bit better now, he may well be a bit sharper than he was at the end of a long season last year. It may well be that Hoddle and Smith deserve credit for improving him a bit. BUT HE WASN'T A BAD PLAYER A YEAR AGO EITHER. To quote a stat and then say there's no argument against it is laughable really. The Captain is (again) bang on the mark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPLwankwankwank Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Maybe 2 goals in 20 games is good for a St Mirren striker, but it really is kinda pants at International level. There is NO argument against this, whatever your opinion him as a player is. Manager defended the guy and said he wasn't getting support. He's now supported the guy, particularly last night, and he's banged the goals in. There is an argument and that is: You are wrong and we are right, simple. Don't read red tops read a broadsheet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPLwankwankwank Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 How about a pat on the back for Walter Smith as well then? Why? For finally seeing what was blatantly wrong in all the previous matches, don't think so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 To quote a stat and then say there's no argument against it is laughable really. The Captain is (again) bang on the mark. 668834[/snapback] I actually took a look back at the threads from a few months ago, and hardly anyone was defending Kenny, and rightly so, as his performances were poor. Yes, he has played much better recently. No, I don't think he was a particuarly rotten player before, but his performances in a Scotland jersey have in the past left a lot to be desired. There IS no argument against that stat. 2 goals in 20 games is a poor record for a striker. If, say, McNiven or Lyle in your club team produced that scoring record, I daresay you'd be quite critical of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Its just that some folk don't watch or understand football properly.......... 668825[/snapback] Wasn't it you yourself who once said that resorting to abuse means you are losing or have lost the argument? Glass houses, stones, etc..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SPLwankwankwank Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 There IS no argument against that stat. 2 goals in 20 games is a poor record for a striker. If, say, McNiven or Lyle in your club team produced that scoring record, I daresay you'd be quite critical of it. Unless your argument from the start was that the guy is really good but isn't getting the service. Oh and unless the manager admits to his failing the player on that very point. Oh and unless the guy finally gets decent service and bangs the goals in. Going back to your tabloid newspaper feeling that he couldn't trap a ball. I'd love to see any forward attempt to trap the sort of passes he was getting, they were punts not passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StewartyMac Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Unless your argument from the start was that the guy is really good but isn't getting the service. Oh and unless the manager admits to his failing the player on that very point. Oh and unless the guy finally gets decent service and bangs the goals in.Going back to your tabloid newspaper feeling that he couldn't trap a ball. I'd love to see any forward attempt to trap the sort of passes he was getting, they were punts not passes. 668925[/snapback] I'm pretty sure the through ball in the San Siro that he made an absolute arse of could be regarded as 'good service'. Isn't it funny that when a striker is scoring goals, it's because he's brilliant, yet when he's not it's because of 'poor service'. Ferguson, Fletcher, and Quashie have been part of the Scotland midfield for a good while now. I don't think you can single out 'the service' as the only reason Kenny Miller wasn't scoring. His own form at International level was poor. How anyone can argue against this is beyond me. The fact is, that for whatever reason, he now looks a sharper, fitter, more clinical striker than he did even 3 months ago. Whether thats down to Hoddle, Smith, or even McCoist, or a combination of all three, I don't know. But I won't sit here and say I was wrong about him because I thought he was previously poor. I'm as happy as the next man that he's turned it around, doesn't change history though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Sensible Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 There IS no argument against that stat. Yes there is - see above. 2 goals in 20 games is a poor record for a striker. If, say, McNiven or Lyle in your club team produced that scoring record, I daresay you'd be quite critical of it. 668893[/snapback] But he didn't start all those 20 games - as you keep ignoring. He started 12 of them. Frank McGarvey didn't score in any of his first 9 starts for St. Mirren and went on to become one of the greatest strikers in the history of St. Mirren & Celtic. And McNiven & Lyle play at a level where they get far more goalscoring opportunities. Miller has now scored 6 goals in 15 starts at international level. I reckon that's not a bad return. If you look at Miller's club record he has been a very consistent goalscorer - he wasn't bad before and he's not suddenly become a superstar. IMO, he's actually been very under rated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Sensible Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 Wasn't it you yourself who once said that resorting to abuse means you are losing or have lost the argument? Glass houses, stones, etc..... 668900[/snapback] And what abuse have I given and to whom? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Captain Sensible Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 The fact is, that for whatever reason, he now looks a sharper, fitter, more clinical striker than he did even 3 months ago. Whether thats down to Hoddle, Smith, or even McCoist, or a combination of all three, I don't know. 668974[/snapback] Miller scored 20 goals for Wolves LAST season, BEFORE Hoddle, Smith or even McCoist came on the scene - and a Premeirship club wanted to pay over £1m for him despite him being a free agent at end of this season. Miller is no more sharper, fitter or more clinical now than he was 3 months ago or last season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Loki Posted September 8, 2005 Share Posted September 8, 2005 What a pointless argument. The Kenny Miller of six months ago is not as good as the Kenny Miller of today. Miller's movement has greatly improved, and you have seen that in the taking of his goal against Italy and his first against Norway. Its hypothetical but if Kenny Miller had both those infamous chances tomorrowI think he would have scored them. He is alot more composed on the ball now. He used to snatch at chances, and if you had seen him for Wolves last season he could have had many more than 20 goals. However I agree Kenny Miller wasnt a bad player six months ago, and I dont necesarily think he was denied decent service. He was just unconfident and didnt believe in his own ability. He now has that belief in himself and you can see how good a player that he could easily become. Captain Sensible he is alot fitter than he was last season. Miller said in an interview before the Italian game that he has lost a stone in weight since he started a new training regime under Glenn Hoddle. He has also been given intensive striking coaching, mainly working on his movement and has scored four goals in less than three games. That would prove that infact he is sharper, more clinical and fitter than he was six months ago. Was he a bad player six months ago? No he wasnt. Is he a better player right now? Yes he is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.