Nizzy Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 hour ago, Wee Willie said: I agree Therein lies my problem...I think both sides are full of sh*t. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lordofthewing Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Voted Yes last time and can't say there's anything that would make me change my mind this time round, in fact the even more contemptuous attitude of the Tories and the clusterfuck that is Brexit has completely guaranteed a Yes vote from me this time as well. I do agree that we need to nail the currency argument to help convince soft No voters to reconsider their stance, and actually listen to and address any other concerns and uncertainty. I also agree with the idea that we need to show that the Yes campaign isn't just about Sturgeon or the SNP, as I think the Greens (for a start) will be a valuable asset. It's also essential, as others have mentioned, that it doesn't just come down to Yes=Left and No=Right, as that is a gross oversimplification of the referendum, and that we need to listen to views from all across the political spectrum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 6 hours ago, ftk said: No - Scotland hasn't seen the mass influx of immigrants from eastern Europe yet like the South of England. Let's get out of Europe but stay with the UK the 5th biggest economy in the world. Good point. I feel that my Pictish identity is seriously under threat. I now only have to determine if i'm pre-Indo-European Pict or Celtic Pict and then I'll adjust my vote accordingly. Don't want our kids growing up saying 'pivo' and eating pierogi do we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jambomo Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 5 minutes ago, dee_62 said: and this is where I try to see it from both sides - and I'm not expecting a reply - these questions are my internal dialogue - how do we actually know this to be the truth (suffering the slow economic death part). Totally agree about the alien government and lack of understanding bit. Who's to say Britain won't get a good deal out of Brexit? Depending on events in other European nations, we may have timed our exit perfectly - nobody actually knows, do they? As an SNP voter, I have to admit to being slightly underwhelmed by the last few years of government. It's lucky for the Party that there is no effective opposition. How do we know that the SNP will be able to lead us towards long term growth etc? Are we shunning one set of incompetents (Westminster) for another (Edinburgh)? Is a political career a magnet for a large amount of self important p***ks that most of us wouldn't have been pals with at school? I think there are lots of big unknowns and you have outlined them here but there are only two things I'd say 1) Who's to say Britain won't get a good deal out of Brexit? I think the answer to that is that there isn't a better deal to be had, because the best deal is the one we have already. May has already clearly said that we won't try to retain single market membership, so what's really left for us to try and obtain? A good trade deal? We may get a reasonable one but logically, its unlikely to be a better one than we have. 2) How do we know that the SNP will be able to lead us towards long term growth etc? - We don't. Nobody can really ever guarantee that because economics is a volatile area open to a lot of external influences. However if we don't like what they do, independence would give us the ability to vote them out and do something about it. Something we don't currently have any ability to do. It is my own personal opinion (which I can't back up so I no way offer this as fact) that the demise of the EU has been exaggerated by the likes of Farage and Johnson. Even in France, the likes of Le Pen don't want France to leave the EU - she wants renegotiation because they know which side their bread is buttered. People point to the likes of Greece as examples of its collapse, but they made a lot of their own problems, not all of which was to do with the Eurozone. They don't point to the relatively stable economies who do perfectly well in Europe (Finland, Netherlands etc). Its not just about the economics of course, I'm not saying it can't happen (after brexit and Trump that would be stupid) but I think its stronger than it is being made out to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Seriously, it's got to be a no-brainer, even if you don't like the EU. Scotland has to choose EU membership on her own grounds, not Ukip's. After independence, that debate can still be had on our own terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 One of the biggest factors imo is that a No vote simply meant a comfortable "keep the status quo, no change" in the last referendum. Now, whether they want it or not, a big change is coming and they must decide which rabbit hole they want to go down. Will almost certainly make a big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftk Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Good point. I feel that my Pictish identity is seriously under threat. I now only have to determine if i'm pre-Indo-European Pict or Celtic Pict and then I'll adjust my vote accordingly. Don't want our kids growing up saying 'pivo' and eating pierogi do we? I'm all for immigration but not unlimited immigration. Has to be gradual so we can improve our infrastructure every year ie building more houses, schools and hospitals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Just now, Jambomo said: I think there are lots of big unknowns and you have outlined them here but there are only two things I'd say 1) Who's to say Britain won't get a good deal out of Brexit? I think the answer to that is that there isn't a better deal to be had, because the best deal is the one we have already. May has already clearly said that we won't try to retain single market membership, so what's really left for us to try and obtain? A good trade deal? We may get a reasonable one but logically, its unlikely to be a better one than we have. 2) How do we know that the SNP will be able to lead us towards long term growth etc? - We don't. Nobody can really ever guarantee that because economics is a volatile area open to a lot of external influences. However if we don't like what they do, independence would give us the ability to vote them out and do something about it. Something we don't currently have any ability to do. It is my own personal opinion (which I can't back up so I no way offer this as fact) that the demise of the EU has been exaggerated by the likes of Farage and Johnson. Even in France, the likes of Le Pen don't want France to leave the EU - she wants renegotiation because they know which side their bread is buttered. People point to the likes of Greece as examples of its collapse, but they made a lot of their own problems, not all of which was to do with the Eurozone. They don't point to the relatively stable economies who do perfectly well in Europe (Finland, Netherlands etc). Its not just about the economics of course, I'm not saying it can't happen (after brexit and Trump that would be stupid) but I think its stronger than it is being made out to be. I'm not party political but independence is the natural order of things IMHO. As to your points though: 1- Who's to say Hearts or Hibs won't win the SPL next year? Current form would suggest it unlikely but... 2. Why would the SNP be the sole guardian of our future post-indy? Surely Scotland would have a plurality of political viewpoints represented as does any other small nation? SNP the only show in town at the moment, unless you support the Nasty Party, but it won't stay that way one normality is returned to Scotland. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerberus Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Has anyone mentioned the oil yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crùbag Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 minute ago, ftk said: I'm all for immigration but not unlimited immigration. Has to be gradual so we can improve our infrastructure every year ie building more houses, schools and hospitals. It's not unlimited. Even from the EU, there hasn't been a 'flood'. Many of the Polish, and Spanish before them, that were here in numbers years ago have returned. Some have settled and why not? The issue of better services is not one to be blamed on immigrants but one of native governance. Though, if 300k to half a million retired Brit-immigrants in Spain are returned as a result of hard Brexit, this may put additional stress on the NHS and other services, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 16 minutes ago, Crùbag said: Good point. I feel that my Pictish identity is seriously under threat. I now only have to determine if i'm pre-Indo-European Pict or Celtic Pict and then I'll adjust my vote accordingly. You're from south of the Forth, right? If so, hard lines you imposter: Understandable that you'd rather be a cool kid though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 If you're opposing a Yes vote based on your opinion of the SNP then you're also tacitly endorsing this current Tory government as a better option. The Tory government that's rapidly dismantling the NHS, engineering a bigger education crisis than we can ever hope to achieve and scarcely managing to negotiate a Brexit deal that won't keep you working till you're deid. Worth a thought tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftk Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 It's not unlimited. Even from the EU, there hasn't been a 'flood'. Many of the Polish, and Spanish before them, that were here in numbers years ago have returned. Some have settled and why not? The issue of better services is not one to be blamed on immigrants but one of native governance. Though, if 300k to half a million retired Brit-immigrants in Spain are returned as a result of hard Brexit, this may put additional stress on the NHS and other services, no? The mass immigration hasn't hit Scotland yet but it has in the South of England. If or when it happens here I'm sure many will not be so keen to be part of the European union. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NotThePars Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Just now, ftk said: The mass immigration hasn't hit Scotland yet but it has in the South of England. If or when it happens here I'm sure many will not be so keen to be part of the European union. Can't say the amount of immigrants I see in Glasgow really bothers me. Made the city better if anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ftk Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Can't say the amount of immigrants I see in Glasgow really bothers me. Made the city better if anything. As I say I'm not against immigration at all. In parts of England it has got beyond a joke though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boostin' Kev Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Would like to see more cultural diversity with working residents in Edinburgh tbh. One of my favourite aspects of the city is meeting people from around the globe but the majority tend to be tourists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 9 minutes ago, Cerberus said: Has anyone mentioned the oil yet? Why? The argument will not be made on oil. Oil will just be a bonus when the price once again goes up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
git-intae-thum Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 Fear over immgration is a ridiculous reason to oppose Scottish independence. Scotland needs lots of people to come here. Particularly young people. Who is gonna pay yer pension? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 2 minutes ago, git-intae-thum said: Why? The argument will not be made on oil. Oil will just be a bonus when the price once again goes up. Despite everything said before, I've already heard the opposite continually banded around the office today, e.g. there's no real argument for independence in the current climate, if the price doesn't bounce back we'd be f***ed etc etc. If the message hasn't got through yet, I doubt it ever will tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hedgecutter Posted March 14, 2017 Share Posted March 14, 2017 1 minute ago, git-intae-thum said: Fear over immgration is a ridiculous reason to oppose Scottish independence. Scotland needs lots of people to come here. Particularly young people. Who is gonna pay yer pension? "Ah've paid into the pension fund all my life, that's ma money sitting in some safe place that they can't take away" and so on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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