No Voters - what say you?

[John Lambies Doos]

Imagine being a No Voter. How fukin minterage

[Jamaldo]

I would ask any previous No voters who are now open to being convinced to check out the "Journey to Yes" videos online. Some good stuff there, the Tom Morton one in particular.

[sergie's no1 fan]

I think the question people need to ask themselves now is do they want to be part of the clusterfuck that is the UK? I think it's getting harder to sell the Union by the day and we haven't even got near the nitty gritty negotiations of Brexit.

[Jamaldo]

I think the question people need to ask themselves now is do they want to be part of the clusterfuck that is the UK? I think it's getting harder to sell the Union by the day and we haven't even got near the nitty gritty negotiations of Brexit.

What I don't get is the people who just don't want independence. I'm not talking about the Rule Brittania types who are beyond help, I mean the normal working people who seem like good guys.

What the hell has actually got to happen for these people to reconsider? This is what worries me.

[DeeTillEhDeh]

Personally, the benefits of this are that I can decide tomorrow to work anywhere in the EU.
From that I get personal freedom.
From an employment point of view it increases the pool to choose talented workers from.
From a scientific point of view we get free access to the best european researchers.
From another employment view we get access to people who WANT to do vital jobs many of our young people are no longer interested in regardless of pay, such as cleaning, labouring, farm work etc.
It encourages diversity in our country which normalises the situation where different nationalities, religions and races freely mix. This is a good thing in terms of reducing racism etc. and removing barriers between different people.
It brings with it a greater variety of viewpoints on all aspects of society which is a good thing. Diversity of opinion, attitudes, culture and thought processes brings about better solutions to a whole range of problems in science, engineering and society in general.
There is very little in the way of a downside TBH.

That's the most sensible thing you've posted in ages - who hijacked your account?

[Antlion]

9 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 I wasnt seeking your approval TBH.

 

[Fide]

10 hours ago, oaksoft said:

 I wasnt seeking your approval TBH.

Oh, take a compliment, ya big lug!

[parahandy1]

On 01/04/2017 at 11:35, Black and White Tragic said:

Rather than pick over the bones in the last Yes campaign and have the usual "ye dinnae ken whit currency ye'll huv" etc. Let's go from a completely different angle.

I want to know from the No side of the fence the top three reasons why staying with the UK is your favoured option. To be clear, I mean benefits and not because you've believe something nasty will happen with indy. So rather than Project Fear we can see your viewpoint with a positive spin. Convince us.

I own 2 businesses, one that derives 100% of its revenue from London, the other gets over 60% of its revenue from English clients. I value the single UK market for the commercial benefits it brings - most of which I probably take for granted. There is no written free trade deal between the constituent countries of the UK because it's an intrinsic part of being in a legislative, fiscal & currency union. Should Scotland leave the UK then a trade deal would probably need to be negotiated that affects a huge part of my market. I like the free trade deal we already have. If an independent Scotland rejoined the EU then we can no longer negotiate a free trade deal with rUK. All negotiations would have to be done by the EU on Scotland's behalf. Given the recent EU model for negotiating, and trying to avoid Project Fear - I just like the free trade deal we already have.

Scotland has a massive deficit. It is over 9% which ranks an independent Scotland at about 200th out of 220 countries. Part of that deficit (about £9bn) is funded by increased national debt as is the rest of the UK deficit, however the balance is paid for by tax payers from the rest of the UK. It amounts to almost £5.4bn annually or 3% of Scotland's GDP. For any currency union to work there has to be a movement of capital on a huge scale to offset the regional variations in the economy. I love the fact that we get large amounts of cash from the English. 

My siblings, cousins, extended family live all over the UK. As many of them have settled south of the border as have married English partners who have settled here. I realise not every extended family crosses Hadrian's wall but mine does. I hate the idea of voting to make foreigners of my own kin. 

I spent over 10 years in the British Army and lived and worked in London and the south before coming home. I have found there is more we have in common and that binds us than there is that divides us. Personal perspective obviously.

[ayrmad]

33 minutes ago, parahandy1 said:

I own 2 businesses, one that derives 100% of its revenue from London, the other gets over 60% of its revenue from English clients. I value the single UK market for the commercial benefits it brings - most of which I probably take for granted. There is no written free trade deal between the constituent countries of the UK because it's an intrinsic part of being in a legislative, fiscal & currency union. Should Scotland leave the UK then a trade deal would probably need to be negotiated that affects a huge part of my market. I like the free trade deal we already have. If an independent Scotland rejoined the EU then we can no longer negotiate a free trade deal with rUK. All negotiations would have to be done by the EU on Scotland's behalf. Given the recent EU model for negotiating, and trying to avoid Project Fear - I just like the free trade deal we already have.

Scotland has a massive deficit. It is over 9% which ranks an independent Scotland at about 200th out of 220 countries. Part of that deficit (about £9bn) is funded by increased national debt as is the rest of the UK deficit, however the balance is paid for by tax payers from the rest of the UK. It amounts to almost £5.4bn annually or 3% of Scotland's GDP. For any currency union to work there has to be a movement of capital on a huge scale to offset the regional variations in the economy. I love the fact that we get large amounts of cash from the English. 

My siblings, cousins, extended family live all over the UK. As many of them have settled south of the border as have married English partners who have settled here. I realise not every extended family crosses Hadrian's wall but mine does. I hate the idea of voting to make foreigners of my own kin. 

I spent over 10 years in the British Army and lived and worked in London and the south before coming home. I have found there is more we have in common and that binds us than there is that divides us. Personal perspective obviously.

Sigh.

[Arabdownunder]

55 minutes ago, parahandy1 said:

 I realise not every extended family crosses Hadrian's wall but mine does.

They've built roads mate, you don't have to climb over the wall any more.

[GTG_03]

I own 2 businesses, one that derives 100% of its revenue from London, the other gets over 60% of its revenue from English clients. I value the single UK market for the commercial benefits it brings - most of which I probably take for granted. There is no written free trade deal between the constituent countries of the UK because it's an intrinsic part of being in a legislative, fiscal & currency union. Should Scotland leave the UK then a trade deal would probably need to be negotiated that affects a huge part of my market. I like the free trade deal we already have. If an independent Scotland rejoined the EU then we can no longer negotiate a free trade deal with rUK. All negotiations would have to be done by the EU on Scotland's behalf. Given the recent EU model for negotiating, and trying to avoid Project Fear - I just like the free trade deal we already have.
Scotland has a massive deficit. It is over 9% which ranks an independent Scotland at about 200th out of 220 countries. Part of that deficit (about £9bn) is funded by increased national debt as is the rest of the UK deficit, however the balance is paid for by tax payers from the rest of the UK. It amounts to almost £5.4bn annually or 3% of Scotland's GDP. For any currency union to work there has to be a movement of capital on a huge scale to offset the regional variations in the economy. I love the fact that we get large amounts of cash from the English. 
My siblings, cousins, extended family live all over the UK. As many of them have settled south of the border as have married English partners who have settled here. I realise not every extended family crosses Hadrian's wall but mine does. I hate the idea of voting to make foreigners of my own kin. 
I spent over 10 years in the British Army and lived and worked in London and the south before coming home. I have found there is more we have in common and that binds us than there is that divides us. Personal perspective obviously.

This is straight from the better together playbook. Blood and soil, kith and kin, Hadrian's wall, foreigners, deficit.
There are arguments for remaining in the UK but these are the worst.

Also, what's wrong with foreigners?

[Antlion]

1 minute ago, GTG_03 said:

 

 

This is straight from the better together playbook. Blood and soil, kith and kin, Hadrian's wall, foreigners, deficit.
There are arguments for remaining in the UK but these are the worst.

Also, what's wrong with foreigners?

 

 

Come on now, you must surely understand how it would turn someone's stomach if their relatives were suddenly given the status of the (not-even-legally-foreign) Irish, or worse, Americans. Overnight, you suddenly wouldn't love your relatives as much because their sovereign parliament isn't the same as yours. Apparently.

[pandarilla]

 

 

This is straight from the better together playbook. Blood and soil, kith and kin, Hadrian's wall, foreigners, deficit.

There are arguments for remaining in the UK but these are the worst.

 

Also, what's wrong with foreigners?

 

But they are strong arguments.

 

Yes might have well won the debates over these issues (I certainly think they did) but it doesn't mean they're not relevant to a lot of people.

 

This guy (presuming it's genuine) feels British. Who are we to say he's wrong?

 

The points about trade deals are absolutely spot on. Those are facts that can't be magiced away by any arguments. Trade with the ruk would be much more complex, and would be affected. For many people this would be problematic.

 

The family tie thing does matter. I agree there's nothing wrong with foreigners but that's a natural reaction when family is involved. It's not one I agree with or think is important, but it's a thing. Again, who are we to say what matters to people?

 

The deficit thing is also real. Obviously I would point out that it is the corruption of the British financial and political setup that has created this but we can't just ignore it. We would have some huge hurdles to face financially and economically.

 

[Antlion]

13 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

But they are strong arguments.

 

Yes might have well won the debates over these issues (I certainly think they did) but it doesn't mean they're not relevant to a lot of people.

 

This guy (presuming it's genuine) feels British. Who are we to say he's wrong?

 

The points about trade deals are absolutely spot on. Those are facts that can't be magiced away by any arguments. Trade with the ruk would be much more complex, and would be affected. For many people this would be problematic.

 

The family tie thing does matter. I agree there's nothing wrong with foreigners but that's a natural reaction when family is involved. It's not one I agree with or think is important, but it's a thing. Again, who are we to say what matters to people?

 

The deficit thing is also real. Obviously I would point out that it is the corruption of the British financial and political setup that has created this but we can't just ignore it. We would have some huge hurdles to face financially and economically.

 

The only "strong" argument is - potentially - the trade one. But that's one that the UK government seems to be all over the place on. On the one hand, they've invented the "single market of the UK" in recent months to describe being a region of the UK - but the UK is not a trading block; it's a nation state. Trading with it does not require being governed from London. There's also the huge contradiction in their saying that an independent Scotland in Europe will be giving up trade with the UK to trade with Europe whilst at the same time arguing that the UK will have full access to European markets (which they've said would include iScotland, which they claim will have chosen Europe's bona fide single market over UK rule). It makes no sense.

The only way that the trade issue becomes a legitimate argument against Scotland being a nation state is if the UK completely cuts itself off from European trade, and leaves the EU with no deal. And, of course, that's simultaneously an argument against remaining part of an isolationist (crazy) state.

[Fide]

5 hours ago, parahandy1 said:

 

Scotland has a massive deficit. It is over 9% which ranks an independent Scotland at about 200th out of 220 countries. Part of that deficit (about £9bn) is funded by increased national debt as is the rest of the UK deficit, however the balance is paid for by tax payers from the rest of the UK. It amounts to almost £5.4bn annually or 3% of Scotland's GDP. For any currency union to work there has to be a movement of capital on a huge scale to offset the regional variations in the economy. I love the fact that we get large amounts of cash from the English. 

My siblings, cousins, extended family live all over the UK. As many of them have settled south of the border as have married English partners who have settled here. I realise not every extended family crosses Hadrian's wall but mine does. I hate the idea of voting to make foreigners of my own kin. 

I spent over 10 years in the British Army and lived and worked in London and the south before coming home. I have found there is more we have in common and that binds us than there is that divides us. Personal perspective obviously.

Re Scotland's deficit, that's utter tosh.  Deloitte's take on it:

If anything, any perceived deficit at present is surely a measure of how poorly Westminster run Scottish affairs.
Also, what's wrong with foreigners?  I have well in excess of 30 relatives living in England.  If were to leave the UK it wouldn't alter our relationship one jot.

31 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

 

 

The family tie thing does matter. I agree there's nothing wrong with foreigners but that's a natural reaction when family is involved. It's not one I agree with or think is important, but it's a thing. Again, who are we to say what matters to people?

 

The deficit thing is also real. Obviously I would point out that it is the corruption of the British financial and political setup that has created this but we can't just ignore it. We would have some huge hurdles to face financially and economically.

 

There is nothing wrong with foreigners and the deficit thing isn't real.

HTH.

[dogmc]

How the heck is ruk gonna run on a daily basis if it wont trade with either Scotland or the eu?? Do the yoons understand trade is generally a two way thing? Why on earth would any politician stand up in Westminster and try to make life more difficult for ruk businesses ?

[John Lambies Doos]

How the heck is ruk gonna run on a daily basis if it wont trade with either Scotland or the eu?? Do the yoons understand trade is generally a two way thing? Why on earth would any politician stand up in Westminster and try to make life more difficult for ruk businesses ?

Nope because they think Great Britain is a highly charged glorious super power.. Really its just a racist dribbling mess

[pandarilla]

How the heck is ruk gonna run on a daily basis if it wont trade with either Scotland or the eu?? Do the yoons understand trade is generally a two way thing? Why on earth would any politician stand up in Westminster and try to make life more difficult for ruk businesses ?

It always affects the smaller of the two parties more, as the UK is finding out through brexit.

I just think too many people here are so much in argument mode that they forget to stop and realise that it's not all one way. Plenty of yes supporters (and I do it myself sometimes) cheer on the eu ministers when they basically tell it like it is with brexit and how it will damage the UK - but will argue a very similar point when it relates to independence.

I know the two effects are not equal by any means but there are clear similarities.

[Fide]

11 minutes ago, dogmc said:

How the heck is ruk gonna run on a daily basis if it wont trade with either Scotland or the eu?? Do the yoons understand trade is generally a two way thing? Why on earth would any politician stand up in Westminster and try to make life more difficult for ruk businesses ?

I believe it's called cutting off your nose to spite your face.  All very well in the school playground, but in reality, not one rUK business would cease trading with Scotland out of huffiness.

[pandarilla]

There is nothing wrong with foreigners and the deficit thing isn't real.
HTH.

Ok the share of the debt then. I'm pretty certain an independent Scotland will be running a deficit though - your article doesn't say it won't...