No Voters - what say you?

[McSpreader]

 

On 07/04/2017 at 21:14, Antlion said:

Can't be. Nowhere can survive without rule from London. To admit that other nations can (and every other state on earth does) would be admitting that Scotland doesn't need to be a region of the UK to survive either. Unless one believes Scotland is uniquely incapable of existing outside imposed Tory governance.

I think Scotland can survive outside Tory governance ( don't agree with 'imposed') and as an independent state . I just prefer to be part of the UK. If we had better politicians here we coud benefit more from the union. As it stands there is not a single politician in Scottish politics that inspires confidence in me to hand them the nation.

[McSpreader]

On 07/04/2017 at 23:20, git-intae-thum said:

No. I think there is still quite a chunk of the electorate that are not entrenched.

Barring the "independence will be a disaster" line which is continually trotted out, what is the actual sales pitch of unionists?

Given recent events it surely is no longer status quo or stability.

The unionist side continually demand answers, proof and evidence. Rightly so.

But given how things have turned out since indy ref 1, this needs to be a 2 way process. How about some answers from unionists.

How are we going to better off remaining in union?

How can we ensure the vast new untapped oil discoveries are not going to be squandered on shite again?

Specifically what powers will be devolved and will they be enshrined in law?

How can we prevent policies enacted by Westminster, under powers retained at a UK level which are clearly aimed at issues faced by the South of England, from damaging Scotland and its differing needs?

How can we ever again be a United Kingdom after the advent of EVEL and the usurpation of the UK assembly by English mps?

Answers please.

We've not been a UNITED Kingdom since the opening of Holyrood and the Welsh Assembly and that's fine. It's good we have our own assembly it's just a shame the SNP use it for posturing, politiking and sniping at Westminster instead of improving the life of those Scots who need help in life.

Wanting independence because there's a wee bit of oil under the seabed is , tbh, selfish. Oil is a UK resource and I'm happy if it benefits the whole of the UK.

The imposition of borders, controls, vetting ,tariffs etc between England and Scotland is not a good idea and I'll not buy into it.

A lot of the Yes campaign is about trashing the legacy of Scottish involvement in British History and airbrushing the truth of our involvement. I'll not support that.

Our union is the longest lasting, most successful, peaceful association of countries in the history of theWorld.  others have tried  their own versions......The Nordic countries for example, but none have compared to our great union.

If we aren't getting the best out of it we have only ourselves to blame.

[Fide]

16 minutes ago, McSpreader said:

We've not been a UNITED Kingdom since the opening of Holyrood and the Welsh Assembly and that's fine. It's good we have our own assembly it's just a shame the SNP use it for posturing, politiking and sniping at Westminster instead of improving the life of those Scots who need help in life.

Wanting independence because there's a wee bit of oil under the seabed is , tbh, selfish. Oil is a UK resource and I'm happy if it benefits the whole of the UK.

The imposition of borders, controls, vetting ,tariffs etc between England and Scotland is not a good idea and I'll not buy into it.

A lot of the Yes campaign is about trashing the legacy of Scottish involvement in British History and airbrushing the truth of our involvement. I'll not support that.

Our union is the longest lasting, most successful, peaceful association of countries in the history of theWorld.  others have tried  their own versions......The Nordic countries for example, but none have compared to our great union.

If we aren't getting the best out of it we have only ourselves to blame.

There are so many untruths and half witted assertions in the above offering I barely know where to start.

All I shall say is, regarding "posturing, politicking (sic) and sniping", between Holyrood and Westminster, which one has recently rolled out the rape clause and slashed bereavement benefit and which one has mitigated the effects of the bedroom tax on those who can least afford it?

If you think the Tory government improves the lives of Scots more than the Scottish government, you are, in the parlance of the early 90s, gangster tripping.

[speedframe]

The continual comparison with the Republic of Ireland is interesting.
Can any informed poster give info on such things as income tax / NI rates, what it costs to see a GP / prescriptions etc over there ?

[pandarilla]

Parahandy1 did that a bit back.ROI is muddling along better in some fiscal measures and worse in others . I'm not that impressed really.

Ok so not the 'financial disaster' that you suggested earlier?

The BBC did a good piece on economic future of iscotland compared to the UK. It generally said things come go either way in the short term with no economic disaster. Long term it reckoned there would be no clear difference either way.

I've yet to see a strong economic argument against independence other than some short term grief relating to currency.

Scotland has enough resources to do fine. Anyone denying this is ignoring the norm for small nations the world over.

[pandarilla]

I saw my 21 year old nephew and his girlfriend at the weekend.  One of the few raving Yoons I know and I wondered, because I hadn't seen him for a while, whether Brexit had softened his opinion.  Nope.
I knew i was onto plums when he started talking about swapping Westminster for Brussels, followed by some violent headshakes when I tried to explain the difference between an iScotland in Europe and Scotland as part of the UK.  Then his girlfriend mentioned Nicola Sturgeon and wondered "when she would put her dummy back in".
We're 32 pages into this topic now and I haven't seen one cohesive, sound argument for remaining part of the UK.
I was just disappointed to have had first hand experience of young people fervently opposing independence because reasons and SNPbad.

There were some well-made, coherent arguments on the first few pages but you're pretty much blind to them. It is perfectly reasonable for some people to vote no and you really should (for your own sanity if nothing else) come to terms with this.

[Fide]

3 hours ago, pandarilla said:

 

 

There were some well-made, coherent arguments on the first few pages but you're pretty much blind to them. It is perfectly reasonable for some people to vote no and you really should (for your own sanity if nothing else) come to terms with this.

 

I never said it wasn't "reasonable".

 

What I said was "I haven't seen one cohesive, sound argument for remaining part of the UK".

That remains the case.  Thankyou though for the concern surrounding my mental health.  It's touching.

Edited April 10, 2017 by Fide

[pandarilla]

I never said it wasn't "reasonable".
 
What I said was "I haven't seen one cohesive, sound argument for remaining part of the UK".
That remains the case.  Thankyou though for the concern surrounding my mental health.  It's touching.

Fair enough. I agree with almost all points you make on this topic.

[jamamafegan]

This is becoming a depressingly regular trope with those of a Yoon persuasion.
Having offered zero in the way of alternatives or solutions other than "SNPBAD", as soon as they rightly get told to get directly to f**k the mewling whines of "cybernat" start.
Some people need to be told to get fucked.  Loondave is undoubtedly one of those people.

"SNPBad"
"Yoons"
"Tory c***s"

None of these expressions do anything to win people over in the argument for independence. You will never be taken seriously and you do more damage to the cause than contribute to. You are by far the worst offender of this behaviour from the Yes side, and if I had the power I would ban you from this thread because you've been warned already. You can't just tell Unionists "to get fucked" and expect something good to come of it. I can't recall a single No voter who has been on this thread who spouts as much bile as you. If you want to continue belittling anyone who has a different opinion to you, bugger off and do it somewhere else.

[JamieThomas]

Tbh, I don't want Tory c***s to vote for independence.

[pandarilla]

Tbh, I don't want Tory c***s to vote for independence.

There's definitely a place for a solid (but hopefully always minority) centre right party in an independent Scotland.

Fermers and their types. I disagree with most of their views but they are an important part of Scottish culture - and their careful attitude to finances could well be crucial.

[JamieThomas]

After independence, the SNP will be the main centre right party. If Labour can finally removed the permanently superglued finger from their arsehole, they can become the main opposition. I suspect however, it'd be the Greens.

[pandarilla]

After independence, the SNP will be the main centre right party. If Labour can finally removed the permanently superglued finger from their arsehole, they can become the main opposition. I suspect however, it'd be the Greens.

Sturgeon is not centre right though. With real power, she will cement the party as a centre/ centre-left party.

Scottish Tories will be a solid group.

[Wee Willie]

17 minutes ago, JamieThomas said:

Tbh, I don't want Tory c***s to vote for independence.

I ken whit ye mean but I'll accept a vote for independence from anyone.

11 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

There's definitely a place for a solid (but hopefully always minority) centre right party in an independent Scotland.

Fermers and their types. I disagree with most of their views but they are an important part of Scottish culture - and their careful attitude to finances could well be crucial.

 

There's a place for any party from the extreme left tae the extreme right but enough people would have tae vote for them to make them viable (and believable).

[Wee Willie]

30 minutes ago, pandarilla said:

 

Sturgeon is not centre right though. With real power, she will cement the party as a centre/ centre-left party.

Scottish Tories will be a solid group.

 

That sounds reasonable.

Scottish Tories will be a solid group.
You can buy laxatives.

[McSpreader]

11 hours ago, pandarilla said:

 

Ok so not the 'financial disaster' that you suggested earlier?

The BBC did a good piece on economic future of iscotland compared to the UK. It generally said things come go either way in the short term with no economic disaster. Long term it reckoned there would be no clear difference either way.

I've yet to see a strong economic argument against independence other than some short term grief relating to currency.

Scotland has enough resources to do fine. Anyone denying this is ignoring the norm for small nations the world over.

 

But other nations haven't had to give up membership of this union or any comparable union. Scotland is in a uniquely blessed  situation that makes the natural urge for independence less important to pursue.

[McSpreader]

1 hour ago, pandarilla said:

 

There's definitely a place for a solid (but hopefully always minority) centre right party in an independent Scotland.

Fermers and their types. I disagree with most of their views but they are an important part of Scottish culture - and their careful attitude to finances could well be crucial.

 

Fermers being an important part of Scottish culture is quite the understatement. Their views are as valid as anyone's.

There is a growing centre right sentiment in Scotland and the SNP have recognised that as can been witnessed by their increasingly shrill denunciation of the Tories, constantly referring to a hard 'Tory' Brexit and so forth.

It will do them no good as Ruthie is doing  a very good job of rehabilitating the Scottish Conservatives and I expect  too see them again improve their vote share in the comoing elections.

[McSpreader]

12 hours ago, Fide said:

There are so many untruths and half witted assertions in the above offering I barely know where to start.

All I shall say is, regarding "posturing, politicking (sic) and sniping", between Holyrood and Westminster, which one has recently rolled out the rape clause and slashed bereavement benefit and which one has mitigated the effects of the bedroom tax on those who can least afford it?

If you think the Tory government improves the lives of Scots more than the Scottish government, you are, in the parlance of the early 90s, gangster tripping.

politiking ......politicking.....a typo doesn't defeat the point made.

[pandarilla]

Fermers being an important part of Scottish culture is quite the understatement. Their views are as valid as anyone's.
There is a growing centre right sentiment in Scotland and the SNP have recognised that as can been witnessed by their increasingly shrill denunciation of the Tories, constantly referring to a hard 'Tory' Brexit and so forth.
It will do them no good as Ruthie is doing  a very good job of rehabilitating the Scottish Conservatives and I expect  too see them again improve their vote share in the comoing elections.

Don't confuse growing conservatism with a clinging on to union - which is why Ruth et al are doing so well.

I don't really get your point about hard brexit. What would you call it? I thought that term was a given considering the single market is being thrown out with the bathwater.

[Antlion]

59 minutes ago, The Chlamydia Kid said:

Well said old bean!

I'm as big a unionist as you'll ever get bit even I have moments when I think "what if I am wrong?" But then I think of utter rockets like Fide etc and think to myself "there is no way I am letting them win".... I am drunk on holiday so wil probably delete this in the morning.

With the likes of David Coburn, HeeHeeHaw, McSpreader, George Foulkes, Alistair McConnachie, and Nigel Farage on your side, I have sincere doubts that you ever question whether Scotland should be anything more than a region of the the UK (which apparently absolutely deserves the statehood Scotland doesn't). These are, after all, your cheerleaders. These are the people you want to see sipping champagne and flicking their fag ash on a saltire after a night of celebrating the rejection of Scotland's independent sovereignty. These are the people you want to "win".