New clubs in the East of Scotland

[Ginaro]

There would be about 35 clubs in a Midlands tier 6 league, leaving the EOS with ~30 clubs. Which would essentially be the same as the East Region and EOS having merged, then split again. At that point if you are having Tayside teams in the LL feeder, you might as well have those 65 clubs together in the EOS with a better structure. But so long as the dividing line is still there, the Midlands league won't happen.

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

In the podcast Baikie specifically mentions that the HL "dinnae want them" where the Dundee clubs are concerned. The only place where it gets talked about as a serious option is on here. The Tayside clubs are not part of the HL's tier 6 feeder negotiations so do not have integration with the North Juniors / HL available as an option.

They could be part of the discussion, but they probably don't want to engage because it would legitimise the idea of going north.

But if things go the way it's looking like for next season, the only Juniors left will be above the dividing line, (and with Brechin in the HL). Perhaps they'll all get the hint and speak to each other?

[LongTimeLurker]

Part of the problem here is Brechin City and the other Angus SPFL clubs are not accepting the boundary either, so it's more than just Lochee United & Co that are resisting being in the HL catchment. If they have the SPFL in their corner on that and the SFA are not hugely fussed either way, that gives the HL a solid basis for not including Tayside in their tier 6 negotiations.

If the EoS membership rejects any future north of the boundary applications now Luncarty are on board that probably leaves the east region north in limbo for a few seasons, if the LL don't accept a rule change on the Club 42 playoff. Having that as the probable outcome will be a big part of why Tayport don't want to hang around with the Dundee clubs any longer. Along with likely not being keen on the drastic mismatches in playing standards involved with being part of the new single division format.

Edited December 22, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

2 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

In the podcast Baikie specifically mentions that the HL "dinnae want them" where the Dundee clubs are concerned.

The fuller quote of that was roughly "Because we're (Tayport) South of the Tay , that is the dividing line , so we can apply to the East of Scotland now and more than likely get membership. Whereas the Dundee teams? The Highland League dinnae want them, the East of Scotland dinnae want them. It's all down to travel I presume." Then goes on to the hope of their being a Midland League which he admits he doesn't know what's happening with that.

It basically sounds like things are exactly where they've been for years where it comes to the Tayside teams. They pinned their hopes on the PWG negotiations and haven't really engaged with entering the pyramid as a collective themselves.

 

[Dev]

Unless an Angus based SPFL club is relegated this season it is hard to see the SPFL having enough motivation to do anything. Even if they tried it could be too late to make a difference as rules and regs need to be in place before the start of the season. It's a tough situation for the Dundee and Angus clubs in the East Juniors.

If Tayport switches to the EoS would any other club try to join them? Thinking of the remaining Perthshire clubs (Scone Thistle, Blairgowrie Juniors and Coupar Angus).

If all Perthshire clubs switched and Tayport too would a joint North Juniors/East Juniors (Dundee/Angus) Premier Division (with regional feeder Divs.1) become an alternative - or not?

Edited December 23, 2020 by Dev
grammatical error

[Burnieman]

Let's remember here that the Tayside/Perthshire/Angus Juniors have (had?) a regional cup competition with the North JFA for many years, so the relationship is already there, they already play each other every season. Montrose Roselea moved from one league to the other.

 

It doesn't take much to start talking to each other to take that a step further with some sort of league merger, maybe a 10/12 team top division initially. That would gravitate towards a Tayside dominated league eventually, with most teams in the Dundee/Aberdeen corridor. Even a play-off between Champions to kick things off would be a positive step.

 

The solution is there if they want it but certain figures/clubs won't accept that they don't belong in the EoS playing Lothians teams, despite the fact the current WL Juniors don't really want to play them either.

 

 

 

 

[FairWeatherFan]

59 minutes ago, Dev said:

Unless an Angus based SPFL club is relegated this season

You can say their name, Brechin City. They're the only Angus based club in SPFL2 and bottom of the table for now. 

[LongTimeLurker]

25 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

...Th solution is there if they want it but certain figures/clubs won't accept that they don't belong in the EoS playing Lothians teams, despite the fact the current WL Juniors don't really want to play them either.

The solution is only there if the HL and north region want to accomodate them. All the evidence points to it not even being on their radar. The Midlands League proposal points to tier 6 entry being a higher priority for your friend from Lochee than a trip to the Lothians.

A lot of what patriot1 has been posting post-Luncarty entry points to the EoS posture being maybe on Tayside clubs if the members say OK when it goes to a vote at the AGM but only at tier 8 or whatever the bottom tier winds up being when the application finally arrives.

Edited December 22, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[stanley]

I think the most significant part of that interview is him saying Tayport have held back from applying to the EoS because they want to move with the Dundee clubs but that they plan to apply to the EoS (without the Dundee clubs) if nothing happens this season. Looks likely we could be seeing Tayport in the EoS next season.

[FairWeatherFan]

13 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The solution is only there if the HL and north region want to accomodate them. All the evidence points to it not even being on their radar. The Midlands League proposal points to tier 6 entry being a higher priority for your friend from Lochee than a trip to the Lothians.

The Tayside clubs aren't on anyone's radar. There's no PWG. The EoSFL have had their application information up on their site basically all year, there's certainly no talk of a Midlands League from their perspective.

I don't think the Tayside teams are talking to anyone except themselves at this point. Which is why they let their Fife teams & Luncarty walk away without putting forward any proposals or working to integrate themselves into the pyramid like the West clubs were doing at the time.

Pretty sure the Midlands League idea was the same one Lochee United's rep put forward on Down the Divisions 8-9 months ago while doing the State of the Juniors pod. Here we are again months later from the same podcast, having the same conversation as it's no more than an idea that the Tayside clubs would like to happen.

[LongTimeLurker]

Tayport should have listened to superbigal two years ago. This was always only to go one way in the east once it became clear the EoS could use the playoff format changes rule to block east region entry. There is zero chance all of the SFA, LL, WoS, EoS and SoS will sign off on a fourth ML feeder at tier 6 so even suggesting it is basically delusional at this point. Looks like Tayport realise that and accept that tier 8 EoS is their only way in now.

 

Edited December 22, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[patriot1]

43 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The solution is only there if the HL and north region want to accomodate them. All the evidence points to it not even being on their radar. The Midlands League proposal points to tier 6 entry being a higher priority for your friend from Lochee than a trip to the Lothians.

A lot of what patriot1 has been posting post-Luncarty entry points to the EoS posture being maybe on Tayside clubs if the members say OK when it goes to a vote at the AGM but only at tier 8 or whatever the bottom tier winds up being when the application finally arrives.

The EOS posture is that any team in Scotland can apply to join. The clubs that have been in the league for 12 months will then have a vote of whether to accept them.

it needs Lochee, Broughty or Carnoustie to put in an application and then we will see how the clubs vote at the AGM

i have heard nothing to say that a Midland league is in the offing.

[Pyramidic]

Great to see my favourite thread back in action.

There are different ways to tackle the Tayside problem. One way would be for Tayside to form a standalone league at Tier 7 feeding into the EOSFL Premier with one promotion place. This would give the likes of Lochee United, Broughty Athletic and Carnoustie Panmure access to the EOSFL Premier but would prevent the likes of Tweedmouth Rangers having to travel to Brechin Victoria for a lower tier league match.

Further limitations could be placed on Tayside clubs if one wished in the form of a play-off system with a EOSFL Division One promotion candidate and/or EOSFL Premier relegation position club.  In my view the EOSFL Premier would be stronger and even more exciting with the inclusion of one or two competitive Tayside clubs. If a Tayside club won the EOSFL they would qualify for the Lowland or Highland Play-offs dependent on whether the Brechin question had been resolved.

If a Tayside club finished in a relegation position in the EOSFL Premier the club would be relegated back to the Tayside League. In my view the suggested format would provide a simple solution to a difficult problem and would ensure inclusivity in the pyramid family.

This is the sensible alternative that I would suggest if Tayside clubs are not slotted into the Highland pyramid. I agree with others that a Midland League at Tier 6 is no longer a viable option.

[Burnieman]

Great to see my favourite thread back in action.
There are different ways to tackle the Tayside problem. One way would be for Tayside to form a standalone league at Tier 7 feeding into the EOSFL Premier with one promotion place. This would give the likes of Lochee United, Broughty Athletic and Carnoustie Panmure access to the EOSFL Premier but would prevent the likes of Tweedmouth Rangers having to travel to Brechin Victoria for a lower tier league match.
Further limitations could be placed on Tayside clubs if one wished in the form of a play-off system with a EOSFL Division One promotion candidate and/or EOSFL Premier relegation position club.  In my view the EOSFL Premier would be stronger and even more exciting with the inclusion of one or two competitive Tayside clubs. If a Tayside club won the EOSFL they would qualify for the Lowland or Highland Play-offs dependent on whether the Brechin question had been resolved.
If a Tayside club finished in a relegation position in the EOSFL Premier the club would be relegated back to the Tayside League. In my view the suggested format would provide a simple solution to a difficult problem and would ensure inclusivity in the pyramid family.
This is the sensible alternative that I would suggest if Tayside clubs are not slotted into the Highland pyramid. I agree with others that a Midland League at Tier 6 is no longer a viable option.

Tayside will not sit as a stand alone league with access to the EoS.

[Dev]

32 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

Great to see my favourite thread back in action.

There are different ways to tackle the Tayside problem. One way would be for Tayside to form a standalone league at Tier 7 feeding into the EOSFL Premier with one promotion place. This would give the likes of Lochee United, Broughty Athletic and Carnoustie Panmure access to the EOSFL Premier but would prevent the likes of Tweedmouth Rangers having to travel to Brechin Victoria for a lower tier league match.

Further limitations could be placed on Tayside clubs if one wished in the form of a play-off system with a EOSFL Division One promotion candidate and/or EOSFL Premier relegation position club.  In my view the EOSFL Premier would be stronger and even more exciting with the inclusion of one or two competitive Tayside clubs. If a Tayside club won the EOSFL they would qualify for the Lowland or Highland Play-offs dependent on whether the Brechin question had been resolved.

If a Tayside club finished in a relegation position in the EOSFL Premier the club would be relegated back to the Tayside League. In my view the suggested format would provide a simple solution to a difficult problem and would ensure inclusivity in the pyramid family.

This is the sensible alternative that I would suggest if Tayside clubs are not slotted into the Highland pyramid. I agree with others that a Midland League at Tier 6 is no longer a viable option.

Do you consider that the HL would accept the idea of an EoS Champion club (North of Tay) coming into their league?

Presumably some East Juniors (North of Tay) are interested to play at a higher standard. The income from SFA licence and SFA cup entry ought to be another incentive for some sort of compromise on their part.

A joint Premier Division with the current North Juniors would seem to be the more likely way forward.

Edited December 23, 2020 by Dev
.

[FairWeatherFan]

If all the East Juniors were to come across it seems more likely by the numbers they come in as regionalised 3rd Division. The Tayside teams ending up spread across Premier, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Division levels over time. A couple maybe progressing beyond that into the LL or above.

The 3rd Division North would probably end up as even more mixed Tayside/Fife wise than the East Region North Division at the end. Due to the EOS having Borders and more Edinburgh based teams that will likely end up at 3rd Division level. Which is maybe a concern due to the travel involved.

[LongTimeLurker]

55 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

Tayside will not sit as a stand alone league with access to the EoS.

To expand on that a bit. The handling of Luncarty's application earlier this year made it clear that east north clubs north of the boundary were going to be treated the same way as east south clubs. Welcome in at the bottom tier if the existing member clubs in the EoS say aye rather than naw at the AGM, so there's nothing to negotiate about from an EoS standpoint. That's the potential way in for all remaining east region clubs. If people want a standalone Tayside league to carry on into the future they may wind up waiting a very long time to get into the pyramid, because there is no indication that the HL actually wants them and the HL would have to sign off on it.

Edited December 23, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Pyramidic]

54 minutes ago, Burnieman said:

1 hour ago, Pyramidic said:

Great to see my favourite thread back in action.
There are different ways to tackle the Tayside problem. One way would be for Tayside to form a standalone league at Tier 7 feeding into the EOSFL Premier with one promotion place. This would give the likes of Lochee United, Broughty Athletic and Carnoustie Panmure access to the EOSFL Premier but would prevent the likes of Tweedmouth Rangers having to travel to Brechin Victoria for a lower tier league match.
Further limitations could be placed on Tayside clubs if one wished in the form of a play-off system with a EOSFL Division One promotion candidate and/or EOSFL Premier relegation position club.  In my view the EOSFL Premier would be stronger and even more exciting with the inclusion of one or two competitive Tayside clubs. If a Tayside club won the EOSFL they would qualify for the Lowland or Highland Play-offs dependent on whether the Brechin question had been resolved.
If a Tayside club finished in a relegation position in the EOSFL Premier the club would be relegated back to the Tayside League. In my view the suggested format would provide a simple solution to a difficult problem and would ensure inclusivity in the pyramid family.
This is the sensible alternative that I would suggest if Tayside clubs are not slotted into the Highland pyramid. I agree with others that a Midland League at Tier 6 is no longer a viable option.

Tayside will not sit as a stand alone league with access to the EoS.

There would need to be compromises whichever route is followed to accommodate the Tayside clubs.

I recall a while ago (I think) you produced an example framework constitution of what the EOSFL would look like if all the East Region clubs joined the EOSFL. I wonder what the set-up would look like now? Would an expanded league be feasible in 2021/22?

[Pyramidic]

59 minutes ago, Dev said:

Do you consider that the HL would accept the idea of an EoS Champion club (North of Tay) coming into their league?

Presumably some East Juniors (North of Tay) are interested to play at a higher standard. The income from SFA licence and SFA cup entry ought to be another incentive for some sort of compromise on their part.

A joint Premier Division with the current North Juniors would seem to be the more likely way forward.

It all depends who is willing to compromise and identify a sensible way forward - HL, LL, EOSFL and Tayside clubs themselves. Sadly real leadership is lacking from the SFA to help resolve the issue.

[Pyramidic]

52 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

If all the East Juniors were to come across it seems more likely by the numbers they come in as regionalised 3rd Division. The Tayside teams ending up spread across Premier, 1st, 2nd, 3rd Division levels over time. A couple maybe progressing beyond that into the LL or above.

The 3rd Division North would probably end up as even more mixed Tayside/Fife wise than the East Region North Division at the end. Due to the EOS having Borders and more Edinburgh based teams that will likely end up at 3rd Division level. Which is maybe a concern due to the travel involved.

Agreed. Regionalisation would be essential at Tier 9 if all the East Juniors move across. Would 3 smaller conferences work at that level? 

[Anychance]

13 minutes ago, Pyramidic said:

It all depends who is willing to compromise and identify a sensible way forward - HL, LL, EOSFL and Tayside clubs themselves. Sadly real leadership is lacking from the SFA to help resolve the issue.

dont think any compromise is needed 

if you want to join the EOS apply and then you start at the bottom and work your way up. no team should be given special treatment 

personally would hate regionalised leagues there is enough teams to still create local derbies or new rivals