Oor Nicola Sturgeon thread.

[Florentine_Pogen]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2022/oct/11/nicola-sturgeon-is-right-the-tories-cruel-policies-are-truly-detestable

"I was mystified to see that Nicola Sturgeon saying “I detest the Tories and everything they stand for” created a stooshie among Scotland’s unco guid (Sturgeon accused of using ‘dangerous language’ about Tories, 9 October).

After all, many in the Tory party itself think that the cruel policies of Liz Truss, Suella Braverman and Kwasi Kwarteng go much too far. These three are like the Faragists whom David Cameron once memorably described as “fruitcakes” and “loonies”.

That Cameron’s odious policies of austerity seem to fall within Truss’s critique of previous Tory administrations (being tainted by a politics of redistribution) signals her even nastier brand of rightwing extremism. Why, then, should a social democrat like Sturgeon even try to be polite about the Tory party, which for years has ruled over Scotland despite being consistently rejected at the ballot box?"
Alastair McLeish
Edinburgh

[Monkey Tennis]

On 13/10/2022 at 22:18, The_Kincardine said:

the idea of of a hard border with England - that a chap from Gretna has to cross an international border if he takes a 5-minute taxi to go for a pint with his mate in Longtown - is utterly bizarre and is only promulgated by the the ignorant and the xenophobic.

You make this 'point' often and I'm struggling to understand it, so please help me with it.

Are you implying that there should be no land borders anywhere?  That someone should be able to travel from Calais to Nepal without leaving the one country?

If so, it's a legitimate view I suppose, but would be quite revolutionary.

If not, doesn't it require lots of the  Gretna/Longtown situations that can currently be found all over the world?

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You make this 'point' often and I'm struggling to understand it, so please help me with it.

Are you implying that there should be no land borders anywhere?  That someone should be able to travel from Calais to Nepal without leaving the one country?

If so, it's a legitimate view I suppose, but would be quite revolutionary.

If not, doesn't it require lots of the  Gretna/Longtown situations that can currently be found all over the world?

He certainly can’t be arguing for this, or he wouldn’t have boasted about supporting the Brexit-enacting, partitionist Tories.

[Clown Job]

On 13/10/2022 at 22:18, The_Kincardine said:

That the idea of of a hard border with England - that a chap from Gretna has to cross an international border if he takes a 5-minute taxi to go for a pint with his mate in Longtown - is utterly bizarre and is only promulgated by the the ignorant and the xenophobic.

I love it when unionist complain about a potential border while ignoring or supporting this British imposed border 

Which wasn’t imposed for economic reasons

Edited October 15, 2022 by Clown Job

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Antlion said:

He certainly can’t be arguing for this, or he wouldn’t have boasted about supporting the Brexit-enacting, partitionist Tories.

In fairness to him, he (in common with plenty Tories) doesn't favour Brexit.  

[Monkey Tennis]

1 hour ago, Clown Job said:

I love it when unionist complain about a potential border while ignoring or supporting this British imposed border 

Which wasn’t imposed for economic reasons

I deliberately avoided highlighting this land border because it's a bit Route 1, and it's loaded in all manner of ways.

He appears to object to borders existing anywhere.  Some people do, and it's fair enough.  He's not hitherto presented as one of them though.

[Antlion]

1 hour ago, Monkey Tennis said:

In fairness to him, he (in common with plenty Tories) doesn't favour Brexit.  

Not favouring it but voting for the architects of it even as they’re calculating how to make it work for themselves is worse. At least genuine Brexiters have the courage of their convictions. Stating you hate Brexit and hate all Brexiteers almost as much as those vile scotch Natters and then voting for the former is laughable.

[Monkey Tennis]

6 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Not favouring it but voting for the architects of it even as they’re calculating how to make it work for themselves is worse. At least genuine Brexiters have the courage of their convictions. Stating you hate Brexit and hate all Brexiteers almost as much as those vile scotch Natters and then voting for the former is laughable.

Ok.

I just think that attacking him for a view he doesn't hold is less effective than challenging the ones he does.

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Ok.

I just think that attacking him for a view he doesn't hold is less effective than challenging the ones he does.

Oh he absolutely supports Brexit/Brexit Britain, as his self-confessed voting history and complete inability to criticise the separatist, partitionist UK in comparison to Nippy’s partitionist Scotchland proves. Occasionally remembering to say “I hate Brexiteers as much as I hate you damn Jock Nats” is about as convincing as Tsar Nicholas II stating he really doesn’t like or believe in monarchy (when he’s being prodded in the side with a bayonet).

[Monkey Tennis]

10 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Oh he absolutely supports Brexit/Brexit Britain, as his self-confessed voting history and complete inability to criticise the separatist, partitionist UK in comparison to Nippy’s partitionist Scotchland proves. Occasionally remembering to say “I hate Brexiteers as much as I hate you damn Jock Nats” is about as convincing as Tsar Nicholas II stating he really doesn’t like or believe in monarchy (when he’s being prodded in the side with a bayonet).

Nah, I don't think that being a Conservative and being opposed to Brexit is particularly inconsistent.

The desire to categorise posters in this way doesn't help discussion.

Christ, it's not as if he doesn't provide enough ammunition by the things he does actually support.

[Antlion]

8 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Nah, I don't think that being a Conservative and being opposed to Brexit is particularly inconsistent.

The desire to categorise posters in this way doesn't help discussion.

Christ, it's not as if he doesn't provide enough ammunition by the things he does actually support.

Like I said, if he was against Brexit to the extent he claims (every now and again) then his continuing to vote for the Tories even as they were enacting it is spineless at best. Further, if he was as against Brexiteers as he claims, it’s odd that he puts roughly 0.000001% of his time, energy, and posts into criticising this particular brand of separatism as he does insulting and stoking grievance about those damn Scotch tartan gonks. If you really think he is at all eager to engage in “discussion”, even after reading his rhetoric, you’re on a hiding to nothing. You’d have better luck trying to seriously discuss the merits of trans rights with J. K. Rowling.

[Monkey Tennis]

39 minutes ago, Antlion said:

It’s odd that he puts roughly 0.000001% of his time, energy, and posts into criticising this particular brand of separatism as he does insulting and stoking grievance about those damn Scotch tartan gonks. If you really think he is at all eager to engage in “discussion”, even after reading his rhetoric, you’re on a hiding to nothing. 

I don't.

I think he talks absolute shit on the subject of Scottish independence.  He doesn't favour Brexit though, so implying that he must is a bit daft.

That's all.

Edited October 15, 2022 by Monkey Tennis

[Antlion]

4 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

I don't.

I think he talks absolute shit on the subject of Scottish independence.  He doesn't favour Brexit though, so implying that he must is a bit daft.

That's all.

There are absolutely plenty of Conservative voters who don’t like Brexit (although a good proportion of them will cringingly shrug their shoulders and accept it, and still another lot have become born-again). I don’t believe for a second Kincy is one of them - and I base this on his posting history, self-professed voting record, and, more than anything, the fact that his supposed antipathy for Brexit is about as convincing as the denials of a toddler sitting next to a faeces-smeared wall. Take his claims - when he remembers to make them - as you will, but I don’t buy them for a second.

[Monkey Tennis]

38 minutes ago, Antlion said:

There are absolutely plenty of Conservative voters who don’t like Brexit (although a good proportion of them will cringingly shrug their shoulders and accept it, and still another lot have become born-again). I don’t believe for a second Kincy is one of them - and I base this on his posting history, self-professed voting record, and, more than anything, the fact that his supposed antipathy for Brexit is about as convincing as the denials of a toddler sitting next to a faeces-smeared wall. Take his claims - when he remembers to make them - as you will, but I don’t buy them for a second.

A strange choice of simile, but OK.

[Antlion]

3 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

A strange choice of simile, but OK.

Nae kids yet? 

[The_Kincardine]

5 hours ago, Monkey Tennis said:

You make this 'point' often and I'm struggling to understand it, so please help me with it.

Are you implying that there should be no land borders anywhere?  That someone should be able to travel from Calais to Nepal without leaving the one country?

If so, it's a legitimate view I suppose, but would be quite revolutionary.

If not, doesn't it require lots of the  Gretna/Longtown situations that can currently be found all over the world?

I'm not 'implying' anything.  I am simply stating that to put a hard border between, say, Annan and Carlisle, and to use different currencies in each is madness.  It achieves nothing and, after being one nation for over 300 years, is thoroughly regressive.  And, yes, I do state it regularly because it's astonishing to see well educated and responsible people like you indulge these atavistic ideas.

[Monkey Tennis]

5 minutes ago, Antlion said:

Nae kids yet? 

Two that are well past that stage.

When a Celtic fan mentions shit smeared walls though, my mind turns to TV News images from my own childhood.

[Monkey Tennis]

4 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

I am simply stating that to put a hard border between, say, Annan and Carlisle, and to use different currencies in each is madness.  

Are you similarly troubled by the idea of towns either side of the numerous other borders like it elsewhere in the world?

[The_Kincardine]

18 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Are you similarly troubled by the idea of towns either side of the numerous other borders like it elsewhere in the world?

My views on what happens elsewhere are immaterial - although my constant support of the EU will give you an idea of where my thinking lies.  Partitioning Britain - driven by the vile politics of identity and division - is regressive. 

[Monkey Tennis]

25 minutes ago, The_Kincardine said:

My views on what happens elsewhere are immaterial - although my constant support of the EU will give you an idea of where my thinking lies.  Partitioning Britain - driven by the vile politics of identity and division - is regressive. 

What if it's driven by a desire to detach ourselves from the pervading politics of the UK, because most Scots reject it?

I think it's daft not to recognise that.  It's quite possible to favour independence, while harbouring no particular anti-English sentiment or fondness for Braveheart.  There needn't be anything "vile" about it.