Too thick to win

[sjc]

Isn't Francesco Totti supposed to be thick as pig shit?

[nsr]

Interesting articles, but I'm surprised no mention was made of how few British players succeed (or even play) outside of the UK.

[Dunning1874]

1 hour ago, Sloop John B said:

I don't necessarily know if it's a big factor, Harry Kane is a literal mouth breather in the real world but in a footballing intelligence sense you don't score however many he has by accident. He's an empty vessel that can only absorb information about football.

Obviously there's a massive difference between intelligence and football intelligence, but there's still a specific point to be made about British footballing attitudes to intelligent analysis of the game: players having fantastic tactical awareness in terms of movement and positional awareness while on the pitch doesn't translate to actually being able to understand or discuss tactics and an intelligent understanding of the game is actively discouraged in many cases.

It's easy to come across as snobby and sneering when discussing this, but the emphasis on #lad schoolboy level patter in dressing rooms actively discourages players from focusing on anything that could be seen as an intellectual pursuit so they don't get the piss taken out of them or actively bullied, which in turns discourages them from devoting time to properly honing an understanding of the game. You only need to look at comments like this to see the consequence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24455721

Jack Wilshere: "We have to remember what we are. We are English. We tackle hard, are tough on the pitch and are hard to beat. We have great characters. You think of Spain and you think technical but you think of England and you think they are brave and they tackle hard. We have to remember that."

Paraphrasing that, it amounts to 'we don't need to worry about any of this silly passing or possession nonsense, we should just run around and kick people because we're England and we don't need to lower ourselves to using trivial shite like tactics'. That was a player speaking at the age of 21 who was seen as the great white hope for English football as a ball playing midfielder, and he was coming out with that utter pish.

When the bulk of the media complain about the lack of English managers in the EPL, why big clubs don't give English managers a chance and why their national team fails, they never take the time to consider how the failure to encourage English players to educate themselves on tactics throughout their playing careers contributes to that relative lack of success as managers.

[dogmc]

Interesting articles, but I'm surprised no mention was made of how few British players succeed (or even play) outside of the UK.

Even more telling is how few British coaches are hired or indeed succeed abroad.

[HibeeJibee]

There is clearly anti-intellectualism... Look at the reaction to Cathro's appointments before a ball had been kicked.

Also I don't think there's much doubt that in broad terms schoolboys who are best at football are rarely high-flyers in the brain stakes.

Not knowing the rules isn't unique to British players/managers though - look at South Africa and Manchester City not knowing whether it was head-to-head or GD.

[Shandon Par]

22 minutes ago, HibeeJibee said:

There is clearly anti-intellectualism... Look at the reaction to Cathro's appointments before a ball had been kicked.

Also I don't think there's much doubt that in broad terms schoolboys who are best at football are rarely high-flyers in the brain stakes.

Not knowing the rules isn't unique to British players/managers though - look at South Africa and Manchester City not knowing whether it was head-to-head or GD.

A couple of seasons back we played East Stirlingshire in a cup one week and Ochilview and Stenny in the league the next week at the same ground. Jim Jefferies seemed genuinely perplexed by why our opponents had given us a much tougher game in the second encounter.  

[Sloop John B]

11 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

Obviously there's a massive difference between intelligence and football intelligence, but there's still a specific point to be made about British footballing attitudes to intelligent analysis of the game: players having fantastic tactical awareness in terms of movement and positional awareness while on the pitch doesn't translate to actually being able to understand or discuss tactics and an intelligent understanding of the game is actively discouraged in many cases.

It's easy to come across as snobby and sneering when discussing this, but the emphasis on #lad schoolboy level patter in dressing rooms actively discourages players from focusing on anything that could be seen as an intellectual pursuit so they don't get the piss taken out of them or actively bullied, which in turns discourages them from devoting time to properly honing an understanding of the game. You only need to look at comments like this to see the consequence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24455721

Jack Wilshere: "We have to remember what we are. We are English. We tackle hard, are tough on the pitch and are hard to beat. We have great characters. You think of Spain and you think technical but you think of England and you think they are brave and they tackle hard. We have to remember that."

Paraphrasing that, it amounts to 'we don't need to worry about any of this silly passing or possession nonsense, we should just run around and kick people because we're England and we don't need to lower ourselves to using trivial shite like tactics'. That was a player speaking at the age of 21 who was seen as the great white hope for English football as a ball playing midfielder, and he was coming out with that utter pish.

When the bulk of the media complain about the lack of English managers in the EPL, why big clubs don't give English managers a chance and why their national team fails, they never take the time to consider how the failure to encourage English players to educate themselves on tactics throughout their playing careers contributes to that relative lack of success as managers.

 

Exactly, look at Alan Shearer, Souness, Roy Keane, Glen Hoddle and Gary Neville's attempts of management, all supposedly intelligent players and leaders but failed miserably at management. 

I just don't think players are really encouraged to think for themselves tactically, the manager is the all powerful one and any comment is seen as criticism and dissent. If you look at the most successful teams in Scotland and England over the last 30 years. Rangers and Manchester United both had similar coaches who ruled with an iron fist but weren't necessarily at the cutting edge tactically. Would Sir Alex Ferguson have lasted 20 odd years if he started today? Very few of their players have had major success as a manager and the only legacy they have left is winning at any cost.

 

 

[Dunning1874]

4 hours ago, KnightswoodBear said:

Very good articles, but i don't think it's a new phenomenon.  I'm sure there's a tale of Pat Nevin having the pish ripped out him for having the temerity to read a book on the Chelsea team bus.  Going back even further, you've got the old Monty Python "I 'it the ball and it flew into the back of the net!" sketch.

Not sure on Nevin, but Graeme Le Saux definitely got absolute pelters from his Chelsea teammates for reading a newspaper.

The treatment he got for that was a precursor to the homophobic abuse he was later subjected to despite not being gay, because obviously he was intelligent, intelligence is unmanly, homosexuality is incompatible with masculinity so therefore Le Saux had to be gay, and of course homophobic bullying is all just good #bantz among the lads rather than absolutely horrific behaviour.

[KnightswoodBear]

Just now, Dunning1874 said:

Not sure on Nevin, but Graeme Le Saux definitely got absolute pelters from his Chelsea teammates for reading a newspaper.

The treatment he got for that was a precursor to the homophobic abuse he was later subjected to despite not being gay, because obviously he was intelligent, intelligence is unmanly, homosexuality is incompatible with masculinity so therefore Le Saux had to be gay, and of course homophobic bullying is all just good #bantz among the lads rather than absolutely horrific behaviour.

Graeme Le Sauxdomy is still one of the funniest things ever posted on here, but.

 

Other than that, spot on.

[Dunning1874]

More reading on Le Saux: https://reflectionsasia.wordpress.com/2007/09/11/graeme-le-saux-how-gay-slurs-almost-wrecked-my-career/

[ICTChris]

49 minutes ago, dogmc said:

Even more telling is how few British coaches are hired or indeed succeed abroad.

Few British players go abroad, compared to other nationalities.

Having said that Italian footballers are notorious homebirds and I've seen players like Chiellini held up as the antithesis of the dumb footballer.

 

I don't think it's fair to say footballers are thick, I think that the culture of the sport is hostile towards people who have interests outside what's considered 'normal' for footballers.  It becomes expected behaviour and people don't want to deviate from it so it becomes self-perpetuating.  

The Le Saux stuff is a good example.  It's not as though Le Saux was some sort of brain surgeon or ultra posh - he was just a normal person with pretty normal interests, yet the fact that was a Guardian reader was held against him his whole career.  

[Shandon Par]

3 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Few British players go abroad, compared to other nationalities.

Having said that Italian footballers are notorious homebirds and I've seen players like Chiellini held up as the antithesis of the dumb footballer.

 

I don't think it's fair to say footballers are thick, I think that the culture of the sport is hostile towards people who have interests outside what's considered 'normal' for footballers.  It becomes expected behaviour and people don't want to deviate from it so it becomes self-perpetuating.  

The Le Saux stuff is a good example.  It's not as though Le Saux was some sort of brain surgeon or ultra posh - he was just a normal person with pretty normal interests, yet the fact that was a Guardian reader was held against him his whole career.  

Probably because most places are shite compared to Italy.

I did a sport where we'd sometimes get football teams coming in to train (boys or girls teams). The girls teams were excellent - you could see the dedication and willingness to learn. The boys teams seemed to be doing as little as possible to get by. Instead of busting a gut to be best they seemed to be in competition to do as little as possible.

The lack of intelligence, or at least education shows through in the inability to handle pressure and to think clearly in tough situations too IMO.

 

 

[Miguel Sanchez]

1 hour ago, Dunning1874 said:

Obviously there's a massive difference between intelligence and football intelligence, but there's still a specific point to be made about British footballing attitudes to intelligent analysis of the game: players having fantastic tactical awareness in terms of movement and positional awareness while on the pitch doesn't translate to actually being able to understand or discuss tactics and an intelligent understanding of the game is actively discouraged in many cases.

It's easy to come across as snobby and sneering when discussing this, but the emphasis on #lad schoolboy level patter in dressing rooms actively discourages players from focusing on anything that could be seen as an intellectual pursuit so they don't get the piss taken out of them or actively bullied, which in turns discourages them from devoting time to properly honing an understanding of the game. You only need to look at comments like this to see the consequence: http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/24455721

Jack Wilshere: "We have to remember what we are. We are English. We tackle hard, are tough on the pitch and are hard to beat. We have great characters. You think of Spain and you think technical but you think of England and you think they are brave and they tackle hard. We have to remember that."

Paraphrasing that, it amounts to 'we don't need to worry about any of this silly passing or possession nonsense, we should just run around and kick people because we're England and we don't need to lower ourselves to using trivial shite like tactics'. That was a player speaking at the age of 21 who was seen as the great white hope for English football as a ball playing midfielder, and he was coming out with that utter pish.

When the bulk of the media complain about the lack of English managers in the EPL, why big clubs don't give English managers a chance and why their national team fails, they never take the time to consider how the failure to encourage English players to educate themselves on tactics throughout their playing careers contributes to that relative lack of success as managers.

I'm eagerly anticipating Adnan Januzaj's England debut next year.

[7-2]

45 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

the fact that he was a Guardian reader was held against him his whole career.  

Seems fair enough actually.

[ICTChris]

Just now, 7-2 said:

Seems fair enough actually.

Didn't realise Robbie Fowler posted on P&B.  How many houses do you own now?

[LondonHMFC]

Remember reading David Batty's autobiography and he discussed Le Saux, think they were playing for Blackburn at the time in an away European game. They ran into each other, and Batty got up shouting abuse in Le Saux face, so he just cracked him. 

Batty said afterwards that he got so much negative press because someone claimed he had given Le Saux homophobic abuse, which led to him losing his temper and lashing out. I think even Le Saux came out and said it was nonsense, but it didn't stop the rumours. 

On a total side note, Batty's book is a brilliant read, came across as quite a savvy chap. 

[7-2]

8 minutes ago, ICTChris said:

Didn't realise Robbie Fowler posted on P&B.  How many houses do you own now?

Don't know. I'm too thick to count them all.

[quickoverayard]

Sure getting paid 100k + takes the sting out of being thick as f**k!!!!

[Nightmare]

I doubt the various dominant Brazilian teams from years back have been a bunch of scholars.

It's nice to laugh at England and suggest that their failures are because they're all fucking idiots, but I think the fact they haven't been successful is probably more closely related to the fact they just haven't been good enough.

[Red 'N Yellow]

Interesting articles, but I'm surprised no mention was made of how few British players succeed (or even play) outside of the UK.

Im sure I read an article on this a few years ago (might have been when Ryan Gauld left?). There's enough money in British football that there's no financial reason to move abroad and for most folk being signed by an EPL or championship club is their dream move. Plus there's no need to adjust to another culture and no need to learn another language. It means there's little reason for players to leave their comfort zone, the U.K. In this case, and challenge themselves abroad. ETA: The same goes for British managers.