Junior football, what is the future?

[archieb]

2 minutes ago, Robert James said:

So tell the SJFA EGM that you want to stay in the juniors, and not be part of the pyramid. Simple and clear : don't get bullied into towing the party line.

Exactly right! (except it's "toeing")

[BTID]

14 hours ago, kefc said:

Don’t see why money is so taboo, it’s not handed out like confetti, it’s earned and given by people or organisations who respect the work you have done on off the pitch. Talbot have done no too bad through the years taking money off the SFA.

The money clubs receive as rewards will be re-invested to better them be that their ground or into the structure if the club. By being Licenced this has enabled us to start an u20/reserve team which when you cost kit, travelling, training costs won’t be shy off £10k per season, this is an investment that we have no doubt will  benefit the club.

We are able to access different grants for ground improvements, a run in the Scottish is always welcomed for exposure and financially.

You either hang onto something not so good for nostalgic or historic reasons or look ahead and see where you can improve, everyone is different in life on how they see things.

Our current U19s at Clydebank are interested to hear more about the 20s setup. I believe it’s Friday nights? We will probably have to go 21s but with our 17s going 19s next year we do have structure a in place to build a team. 

[findla80]

Have to say that I am shocked that Bo’ness and Linlithgow aren’t going this season!! It could come back and bite them!!!

[Auld Heid]

Have to say that I am shocked that Bo’ness and Linlithgow aren’t going this season!! It could come back and bite them!!!

You should approach one of the older committee and ask them why - now that would be interesting.

[findla80]

You should approach one of the older committee and ask them why - now that would be interesting.

Shouldn’t have to ask mate! They should no themselves it’s the right thing to do!

[Auld Heid]

1 hour ago, findla80 said:

Shouldn’t have to ask mate! They should no themselves it’s the right thing to do!

Very true.

When the Super League first started they involved the members at every stage to ensure as the elected committee they were best serving the members they represent.

[PRICEY]

Maybe it’s already been covered elsewhere in the thread.......how many of the clubs that are applying to join the EOS have consulted their members?.Any club called an EGM?.

[Burnie_man]

Our current U19s at Clydebank are interested to hear more about the 20s setup. I believe it’s Friday nights? We will probably have to go 21s but with our 17s going 19s next year we do have structure a in place to build a team. 

 

Friday night's and comprises of clubs from LL, EoS and SoS. Think there's 13 in there at the moment and Blackburn intend to enter next season. We have two U19s, one just stepped up and the other finishes end of the season so will form the bulk of the u20 team I suspect. There's more info on the EoS website, also entitles you to entry to the SFA Youth Cup.

 

 

 

[Guest]

As the hysteria continues amongst some folks at the apparent exodus of east clubs to the EOSL, and the apparent satisfaction of the possible adverse position Junior Football could find itself, one or two observations to try and bring some perspective.

One of the issues with that particular league, and even the most partisan pyrimider can't deny this, is the dysparity in quality of teams that compete. Judging by some of the names being brought forward that have applied that recipe will continue, only in a bigger scale as ubiquitous opportunism appears to be rife and clubs see a chance to jump the pecking order. Whatever it will be next season that is a problem.

It is also interesting the the two biggest East clubs Linlithgow and Bo'ness appear to be resisting the temptation. Ironically, the eastern revolution, started it seems by Kelty creating a movement who, despite claiming to be progressive, are becoming more indulgently anti Junior showing an at times complete disregard for the many positive aspects of that grade and culture . One person claiming now that apparently Bonnyrigg were never that interested in winning the Junior cup being the type of consummately spurious quote aimed at belittling an institution that has served clubs and communities well. I can imagine in 77 when they last won it no one in the town was bothered! 

In the West, who are in a different position as has been discussed, on the back of the Eastern Revolution change iis enevitable, it seems there is no way of resisting the proposition of joining a pyramid. My club have made a statement about concerns they have, some seem to be of the opinion that Talbot should have been at the forefront. However, I have no doubt that they now will have a role, I see that as protecting Junior identity and the retention and promotion of the Junior Cup within any new set up. 

It is ironic that it could be possible for this to happen, but looking at the way it's headed, the east could end up in a very problematic place. 

[Cyril]

9 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

As the hysteria continues amongst some folks at the apparent exodus of east clubs to the EOSL, and the apparent satisfaction of the possible adverse position Junior Football could find itself, one or two observations to try and bring some perspective.

One of the issues with that particular league, and even the most partisan pyrimider can't deny this, is the dysparity in quality of teams that compete. Judging by some of the names being brought forward that have applied that recipe will continue, only in a bigger scale as ubiquitous opportunism appears to be rife and clubs see a chance to jump the pecking order. Whatever it will be next season that is a problem.

It is also interesting the the two biggest East clubs Linlithgow and Bo'ness appear to be resisting the temptation. Ironically, the eastern revolution, started it seems by Kelty creating a movement who, despite claiming to be progressive, are becoming more indulgently anti Junior showing an at times complete disregard for the many positive aspects of that grade and culture . One person claiming now that apparently Bonnyrigg were never that interested in winning the Junior cup being the type of consummately spurious quote aimed at belittling an institution that has served clubs and communities well. I can imagine in 77 when they last won it no one in the town was bothered! 

In the West, who are in a different position as has been discussed, on the back of the Eastern Revolution change iis enevitable, it seems there is no way of resisting the proposition of joining a pyramid. My club have made a statement about concerns they have, some seem to be of the opinion that Talbot should have been at the forefront. However, I have no doubt that they now will have a role, I see that as protecting Junior identity and the retention and promotion of the Junior Cup within any new set up. 

It is ironic that it could be possible for this to happen, but looking at the way it's headed, the east could end up in a very problematic place. 

Kelty wanted to become a senior club, end of, their set up, forward thinking committee, support etc is all set up and geared to move to the SPFL. Not getting anymore than 2 or 3 fixtures and not being allowed to play games under floodlights is really an utter joke, staying junior offered absolutely nothing to them. 

Clubs like Blackburn and Dalkeith should be applauded for jumping the gun and being progressive, they probably have no chance of ever reaching the SPFL or even LL but they've weighed up the options and want to leave the juniors for their own reasons.

If Lithgae and Boness stay junior because they are happy enough then so be it.

[parkcircus]

It’s interesting that most of this kicked off with lack of fixtures and lack of regard for the constitutional changes towards the fixtures, weather aside this season, it’s hard for clubs to run not knowing which month they’ll have a home game.

Now in April and we don’t have a fixture past 14th April.

Even the questionnaire results still have people believing the SJFA will drag it out regardless of the members choices. I suppose if they ignore their members over fixtures why would they listen to them and act regarding this.

SFA Licensing and Scottish Cup entry aside, fixtures are the most important thing for any league or team and the EOS at least publish a list and try to hold to it. The west secretary has already let it be known that next seasons 16 team leagues will be a disaster so do you hang about to see how much of a disaster it’ll be or try something new

[BS7]

Who said Bonnyrigg were never interested in winning the Scottish? I’ve not read that, and I don’t believe it to be true. In fact, I think most if not all Bonnyrigg fans would have a preference for a continuing all in Scottish non league cup.

ubiquitous opportunism? I think given that there are still no alternative plans on the table from the sjfa that’s unfair. The clubs including my own have made their choices on the information available.

theres no guarantees that the sjfa will ever come up with a workable solution, we know this from past performance.

I love the juniors, it should be the pre eminent non league grade in Scotland. It’s not, and Some clubs have ambitions to be higher than they currently are. The pyramid has opened that up, and if the sjfa couldn’t see that was going to happen then frankly they are not fit for purpose.

[kefc]

We did what was best for our club as stated, Junior football in the East was no longer appealing to us when we did our research, we wanted our club Licenced, the same as Auchinleck did.

You go on about positive aspects of the grade, can we get them? The positives of being SFA Licenced, part of the pyramid in the EOS or LL is out there for all to see, why not weigh it up? The only positive I see is the rivalries made between the clubs, this won’t change if everybody joined en masse?

East Junior football is different to the West for me although they do have the same nagging frustrating issue of fixtures every season, lack of finances and you can’t get licenced. How often will a team other than Talbot win the “blue riband” Scottish Junior Cup, once in 20-30-40 years?  If that’s worth staying as a Junior club then I’m not sure it’s very clever.

I think if clubs want to join the pyramid then let them, clubs who want to stay in the SJFA then let them too.

Edited April 4, 2018 by kefc

[Ross.]

44 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

As the hysteria continues amongst some folks at the apparent exodus of east clubs to the EOSL, and the apparent satisfaction of the possible adverse position Junior Football could find itself, one or two observations to try and bring some perspective.

One of the issues with that particular league, and even the most partisan pyrimider can't deny this, is the dysparity in quality of teams that compete. Judging by some of the names being brought forward that have applied that recipe will continue, only in a bigger scale as ubiquitous opportunism appears to be rife and clubs see a chance to jump the pecking order. Whatever it will be next season that is a problem.

It is also interesting the the two biggest East clubs Linlithgow and Bo'ness appear to be resisting the temptation. Ironically, the eastern revolution, started it seems by Kelty creating a movement who, despite claiming to be progressive, are becoming more indulgently anti Junior showing an at times complete disregard for the many positive aspects of that grade and culture . One person claiming now that apparently Bonnyrigg were never that interested in winning the Junior cup being the type of consummately spurious quote aimed at belittling an institution that has served clubs and communities well. I can imagine in 77 when they last won it no one in the town was bothered! 

In the West, who are in a different position as has been discussed, on the back of the Eastern Revolution change iis enevitable, it seems there is no way of resisting the proposition of joining a pyramid. My club have made a statement about concerns they have, some seem to be of the opinion that Talbot should have been at the forefront. However, I have no doubt that they now will have a role, I see that as protecting Junior identity and the retention and promotion of the Junior Cup within any new set up. 

It is ironic that it could be possible for this to happen, but looking at the way it's headed, the east could end up in a very problematic place. 

The same could be said of most leagues. It's also something that changes year on year. It's not an argument against linking up with the senior pyramid.

Some clubs want to do it, some don't. Let those that want to(And are able to) go and the clubs that don't can remain where they are. I see no issue with this.

[Robert James]

14 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Potential bad news for Sauchie. People tend to forget Clackmannanshire is a separate entity from Stirlingshire.

 

 

Won't make any difference as Dalbeattie used to play in the EoSL (before the Lowland was formed) and that is in Dumfries & Galloway

[Cyril]

9 minutes ago, Ross. said:

The same could be said of most leagues. It's also something that changes year on year. It's not an argument against linking up with the senior pyramid.

Some clubs want to do it, some don't. Let those that want to(And are able to) go and the clubs that don't can remain where they are. I see no issue with this.

Kelty were always going to hammer teams this season, theres no doubt they have a squad who could compete in the top half of the lowland league.

There has been quite a bit disparity in results in the East juniors also, happens all the time at this level.

Broxburn 8 Forfar West End 0, Musselburgh 7 Kirriemuir 0, Whitburn 2 Dalkeith 8, Harthill 10 Stoneyburn 1

[mrman2011]

I salute the clubs who have the balls and ambition to be making a move to the East of Scotland League. 2 divisions of 16 will be interesting and exciting and the junior clubs will not regret it. Hope that the SFA will give them a cash reward as a thank you

Junior set up is old, past it and very bigoted. They wanted their cake and eat it and did so.

The Junior Cup can remain in the pyramid it can be packaged better and could become like the FA Trophy in England

[Black & Red Socks]

Every so often a poster or two pops up to trumpet about the positive aspects of the Junior grade and its culture (I'm honestly none too sure what that's even supposed to mean, but I guess my very honesty in that regard will itself attract criticism for not knowing and therefore not understanding!) but then singularly fails to offer up just what these positive aspects actually are. Local derbies and Scottish Junior Cup ties are proffered, but derbies and cup ties are hardly unique to the Juniors and as has been stated umpteen times, but umpteen times has not been taken on board, Junior Cup ties simply are not the be all and end all for most Junior clubs. No matter how often it's trumpeted, only a very few care or remember who won the thing this year, last year or ten/twenty/thirty years ago - it's a minor grade of football rarely recognised outwith our own wee enclave in the game. Don't shoot the messenger here, although I accept I'm making a sweeping and assumptive statement I'm quite confident it's true.

On the other hand, the positive aspects of a move to the EoSFL and to the pyramid have been stated often enough that I won't list them all again but they include genuinely exciting football related prospects such as fixture lists, U20's football, permitted use of floodlights for rearranged games should you have them, access to grant monies for member clubs to improve facilities, subsidised coaching courses, subsidised goalkeeping courses and so on - none of which seem on offer in the Junior grade. And all of this without an SFA licence. With one, even more possibilities open up in terms of national exposure in the Scottish Cup and the accompanying finance that can grow any club if properly used and reinvested in infrastructure. Again, unless you're the elite few who qualify for the Scottish Cup through a Junior Cup or Super League win, this ability to reinvest and grow through a flow down of sponsors monies to even the smallest of clubs simply isn't available in the Juniors. 

Yes, in the lowest rung of the pyramid a club will still go largely unrecognised and unknown outwith their immediate environs but the possibility really does exist to grow and to flourish - perhaps not it the SPFL but to the very limit of your capability and ambitions. Again, this simply isn't the case in the Juniors, an organisation that has been well warned of their failings but who have been unwilling to listen or to adapt and have been backed by those who see a run in the Scottish Junior Cup and a parade down their high street if they win it as the summit of their ambitions - and wow betide anyone who questions this.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Black & Red Socks

[Gimme]

One person claiming now that apparently Bonnyrigg were never that interested in winning the Junior cup...

Must have missed that one, as far as I can see Bonnyrigg fans have said they wouldn't swap that night in Dumbarton for a Junior Cup not that they had no interest in winning it.

I also said that I don't believe that the Junior Cup is as big a deal for clubs in the East as it is for West.

I not saying the clubs don't want to win it, of course they do, I simply don't believe its the be all and end all that it is in the West.

[cmontheloknow]

37 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

Every so often a poster or two pops up to trumpet about the positive aspects of the Junior grade and its culture (I'm honestly none too sure what that's even supposed to mean, but I guess my very honesty in that regard will itself attract criticism for not knowing and therefore not understanding!) but then singularly fails to offer up just what these positive aspects actually are. Local derbies and Scottish Junior Cup ties are proffered, but derbies and cup ties are hardly unique to the Juniors and as has been stated umpteen times, but umpteen times has not been taken on board, Junior Cup ties simply are not the be all and end all for most Junior clubs. No matter how often it's trumpeted, only a very few care or remember who won the thing this year, last year or ten/twenty/thirty years ago - it's a minor grade of football rarely recognised outwith our own wee enclave in the game. Don't shoot the messenger here, although I accept I'm making a sweeping and assumptive statement I'm quite confident it's true.

On the other hand, the positive aspects of a move to the EoSFL and to the pyramid have been stated often enough that I won't list them all again but they include genuinely exciting football related prospects such as fixture lists, U20's football, permitted use of floodlights for rearranged games should you have them, access to grant monies for member clubs to improve facilities, subsidised coaching courses, subsidised goalkeeping courses and so on - none of which seem on offer in the Junior grade. And all of this without an SFA licence. With one, even more possibilities open up in terms of national exposure in the Scottish Cup and the accompanying finance that can grow any club if properly used and reinvested in infrastructure. Again, unless you're the elite few who qualify for the Scottish Cup through a Junior Cup or Super League win, this ability to reinvest and grow through a flow down of sponsors monies to even the smallest of clubs simply isn't available in the Juniors. 

Yes, in the lowest rung of the pyramid a club will still go largely unrecognised and unknown outwith their immediate environs but the possibility really does exist to grow and to flourish - perhaps not it the SPFL but to the very limit of your capability and ambitions. Again, this simply isn't the case in the Juniors, an organisation that has been well warned of their failings but who have been unwilling to listen or to adapt and have been backed by those who see a run in the Scottish Junior Cup and a parade down their high street if they win it as the summit of their ambitions - and wow betide anyone who questions this.

Just on the 'big' Scottish Cup, non-licence holders in EoS also have opportunties to qualify, either by winning EoS itself (like LTHV have done a few times) or by winning the new South/East Shield or whatever it's called. It is competed for by the winners of the Alex Jack Cup (the non-Licence holders cup for EoS sides) against the winners of the Alba Cup, a new cup for non-licence holders in the South of Scotland. This year, Tynecastle have won the overall cup to qualify for next season's Scottish Cup. I'd say that Scottish Cup entry for East/West clubs even by this route is more straightforward than trying to win East/West top flight or Junior Cup.

Edited April 4, 2018 by cmontheloknow