Junior football, what is the future?

[AlanCamelonfan]

7 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

This fact alone should act as a wake-up call to those trusting in TJ & his SJFA.

I really cannot see the sense in paying a TV company money to show a game, when it will undoubtedly lead to fewer bodies through the gate.

if it was with the intent to attract a sponsor, it may make sense but they've failed miserably on that score.

Many die-hard junior fans see the clubs leaving as traitors to the grade or lemmings jumping over the cliff but the alternative for most is to wither and die, gradually, whilst the rest of the non-league scene prospers.

There is a lot of Camelon fans against the move. What seems to be the problem they are looking at the nowrather than the future. Looking at it as a football point of view rather than a club point of view. We won' get to play linlithgow or boness. That is disappointing but not a reason to halt progress. I fear if we waited until next year we would be in tier 7 and struggle to get out of it. 

The guy I was talking to one Wednesday about it I used Blackburn as an example. They'be not done nothing. I says they are strong community club. Great new stadium. One of the guys who works for me is playing for one of their teams just now and going into the under 20s team next season. They are all excited to be going. Us well some think sjfa are going to pull through and join pyramid and that' not going to happen especiallyin east.

[Whitburn Vale]

Speaking to another junior official this morning at my work.

He's saying their is 2 proposal's on the table for the east juniors........,the 3 league option i posted earlier and another apparently keeping the same structure as now but with smaller leagues.

Edited May 4, 2018 by Whitburn Vale

[juniorsforme]

20 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

This fact alone should act as a wake-up call to those trusting in TJ & his SJFA.

I really cannot see the sense in paying a TV company money to show a game, when it will undoubtedly lead to fewer bodies through the gate.

if it was with the intent to attract a sponsor, it may make sense but they've failed miserably on that score.

Many die-hard junior fans see the clubs leaving as traitors to the grade or lemmings jumping over the cliff but the alternative for most is to wither and die, gradually, whilst the rest of the non-league scene prospers.

The SJFA  receive  £5,000.00 per season from BBC Alba

[Che Dail]

4 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

There is a lot of Camelon fans against the move. What seems to be the problem they are looking at the nowrather than the future. Looking at it as a football point of view rather than a club point of view. We won' get to play linlithgow or boness. That is disappointing but not a reason to halt progress. I fear if we waited until next year we would be in tier 7 and struggle to get out of it. 

The guy I was talking to one Wednesday about it I used Blackburn as an example. They'be not done nothing. I says they are strong community club. Great new stadium. One of the guys who works for me is playing for one of their teams just now and going into the under 20s team next season. They are all excited to be going. Us well some think sjfa are going to pull through and join pyramid and that' not going to happen especiallyin east.

Thing is, if and when the juniors join the pyramid, the SL would most likely lose Linlithgow after year 1, Bo'ness after year 2 and say Penicuik after year 3 (to the Lowland League). What is left after that? 

Nobody will want their club relegated into that league from the 'LL as opposed to dropping into the EoS.

Clubs are doing the right thing by moving now, it's the only option that provides any certainty about inclusion in the pyramid and club licensing.

As I understand it there's still a chance that the EoS will accept late applications, particularly if there's an odd number of teams.

[juniorsforme]

15 hours ago, Che Dail said:

It's a poor league -  the standard dropped noticeably this season and will be worse next year.  The  ERJFA should take the opportunity to regionalise it now to prepare for the seasons ahead.  In the last five seasons the highest placed North of Tay clubs are:

12/13 Carnoustie, 9th

13/14 Lochee, 10th

14/15 Carnoustie, 13th

15/16 Broughty, 10th

16/17 Lochee, 5th

You have to question what benefit these clubs plus Forfar bring to the bigger clubs in the central belt - travelling support will be minimal.

Lochee United and Tayport both Super  League winners on  two  occasions. Apart from Kelty twice winners and now Bonnyrigg departing none of the other clubs leaving the ERJFA have won the SL...In fact the majority have not played in the SL. So why does that make the North clubs inferior ? Football clubs have good and bad periods in their history nothing changes and no club dominates forever.

Edited May 4, 2018 by juniorsforme

[cmontheloknow]

11 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

The SJFA  receive  £5,000.00 per season from BBC Alba

Thanks for the clarification - can you confirm when that started as the initial agreement with them was not that. It may have been the first few seasons though. 

[Che Dail]

12 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Lochee United and Tayport both Super  League winners on  two  occasions. Apart from Kelty twice winners and now Bonnyrigg departing none of the other clubs leaving the ERJFA have won the SL...In fact the majority have not played in the SL. So why does that make the North clubs inferior ? Football clubs have good and bad periods in their history nothing changes and no club dominates forever.

Tayport are South of Tay.

Lochee were also relegated  recently - although they could win the league when the top clubs are in the LL.

[Robert James]

46 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

This fact alone should act as a wake-up call to those trusting in TJ & his SJFA.

I really cannot see the sense in paying a TV company money to show a game, when it will undoubtedly lead to fewer bodies through the gate.

if it was with the intent to attract a sponsor, it may make sense but they've failed miserably on that score.

Many die-hard junior fans see the clubs leaving as traitors to the grade or lemmings jumping over the cliff but the alternative for most is to wither and die, gradually, whilst the rest of the non-league scene prospers.

Rumour has it that there was one late application, not considered at the EoS EGM. Does anyone know who it was/is - guesses include Bo'ness ? Dunbar ?

[juniorsforme]

36 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Tayport are South of Tay.

Lochee were also relegated  recently - although they could win the league when the top clubs are in the LL.

Relegation is part of the game. That season we were simply not good enough but have came back and established ourselves in the SL. Tayport have always been seen as a Dundee club the geography of where they are situated would more than likely see them as a North club. Che, winning any league  is an achievement and we have done that a lot of clubs would like our history including the relegation part. 

[juniorsforme]

53 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Thanks for the clarification - can you confirm when that started as the initial agreement with them was not that. It may have been the first few seasons though. 

They have always paid to broadcast the final. Their money has always been included in the accounts at the SJFA  agm.

[gazh89]

Been reading this topic for a while now and enjoyed listening to both sides of he discussion. Personally I have always wanted to see an integrated Pyramid structure in Scottish football and it looks like it could happen despite a few detractors. 

Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to take in any Junior games over the years due to my work patterns but I have managed to take in a few EOSFL games at Saughton (LTHV v Kelty & Tynecastle v LTHV) and New Central Park (Kelty v LTHV) due to my reading of this forum having perked my interest. While the standard of football is not fantastic, I did not think it was all that bad looking at it from an unbiased position. With that being the case, I don't know how the Junior game compares/fits in to standards of football in Scotland but I would of thought the some Juniors (Bo'ness, Linlithgow, Auchinleck, Pollok) are probably LL sides and some more EOSFL (Glenrothes, Tayport, Wishaw, Lugar BT - i just plucked names so apologies if any fans of those teams!) 

The staunch junior fans on here have a love for the grade but I don't see the benefits of the grade today compared to the past. The question has been asked repeatedly but I don't think there has been a clear answer but what are the reasons for staying Junior?  As the question has been ignored before I don't suspect there is an answer. 

[Junior_Arab]

57 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Lochee United and Tayport both Super  League winners on  two  occasions. Apart from Kelty twice winners and now Bonnyrigg departing none of the other clubs leaving the ERJFA have won the SL...In fact the majority have not played in the SL. So why does that make the North clubs inferior ? Football clubs have good and bad periods in their history nothing changes and no club dominates forever.

Since 2000:

Lochee - 1 Scottish final

Carnoustie - 2 Scottish finals

Tayport - 3 Scottish finals

compared to

Linlithgow - 5 Scottish finals

Kelty - 1 Scottish final

Bo'ness - 0

Bonnyrigg - 0

Even this season the North had 2 teams in the quarters (1 from the South) and 1 in the semis (0).

[Che Dail]

11 minutes ago, juniorsforme said:

Relegation is part of the game. That season we were simply not good enough but have came back and established ourselves in the SL. Tayport have always been seen as a Dundee club the geography of where they are situated would more than likely see them as a North club. Che, winning any league  is an achievement and we have done that a lot of clubs would like our history including the relegation part. 

Yes i know but the point I'm making is that if you look 5-6 years ahead, the top 4 SL clubs at the moment will potentially be in the LL anyway and clubs below that will be split regionally.

Personally I think the direction should be towards a league at tier 6 to reflect the SFA East Region which covers Angus, Dundee, Perth & Kinross and Fife.

So Lochee, Tayport and Carnoustie could be up there challenging for titles every season and without the threat of relegation hanging over them, without unneccesary travel costs and with a chance of promotion to the LL (if they can sort out this 'north of Tay' line) and if the clubs can work towards a licence. What's the point in those clubs being in the same league as Newtongrange, Penicuik, Dunbar, Arniston at this level? I'm not sure it adds anything to Linlithgow or Bo'ness either.

So I think the ERJFA should abolish the superleague and split the regions up geographically now to prepare for the future integration.

[Che Dail]

16 minutes ago, Junior_Arab said:

Since 2000:

Lochee - 1 Scottish final

Carnoustie - 2 Scottish finals

Tayport - 3 Scottish finals

compared to

Linlithgow - 5 Scottish finals

Kelty - 1 Scottish final

Bo'ness - 0

Bonnyrigg - 0

Even this season the North had 2 teams in the quarters (1 from the South) and 1 in the semis (0).

You're going back 18 years? Most folk are looking ahead 5-10 years.

[Jambo'ness]

1 hour ago, Robert James said:

Rumour has it that there was one late application, not considered at the EoS EGM. Does anyone know who it was/is - guesses include Bo'ness ? Dunbar ?

Not a hope in hell it's Bo'ness.  The majority of the committee are not for moving and trust TJ implicitly.

[Guest]

16 hours ago, VodkaTap said:

Isa, I have followed this thread with great interest and I understand your passion for junior football - that comes across very clearly.

We have heard that there are lots of what's currently wrong with both the pyramid & the juniors. What should have been done, what could have been done - but thats history now.

What I would be interested to know is how do you see the future of non league football in the years ahead?

How do we move from what we have now, to what you think we will have in the future ?

Adopt the best bits of all non league. The Juniors will need some assurances  to come in largely unanimously on board to a future pyramid that works well. Promoting the Scottish Junior Cup as the premier non league tournament, name and all, would help everyone. Make it open to every club including HL and LL, doesn't have to be mandatory but open to all if they fancy it. This would attract new sponsors I'm sure and make it a very competitive tournament. It is in my humble opinion important that the name is kept, would go some way to paying homage to a fantastic tournament with a great history and would help ease the transition to allow some tradition to be maintained. We could at last adopt stuff like floodlights, midweek fixtures in winter, some of the stuff non Junior non league clubs have benefited from for years. I could go on, but I can already sense the grinder gang belittling the Junior Cup idea, in their quest to stamp the awkward Juniors into submission, the very idea that this being the sort of blue ribbon tournament that would benefit others within the non league not given house room.

 

My friend, we all need to move on with this and I would love to see a floodlit game at Beechwood and lots of other benefits not on offer at the moment for the Juniors. I do not think the grade is the be all, but insist that some of the tradition is fine and it's very size deserves respect. But their are some who are determined to render Junior Football obsolete. Those are who I resent, especially the underhand sleekit way some are conducting their vandetta. Expose this, and we have a chance of a united non league sector free of crusade.

In short, I would prefer the Juniors joined in, but not kicking and screaming any more, due regard all round.

 

Hemet on again I can hear the red dots coming!

Edited May 4, 2018 by Guest

[Deanburn Dave]

Rumour has it that there was one late application, not considered at the EoS EGM. Does anyone know who it was/is - guesses include Bo'ness ? Dunbar ?

Bo'ness are frequently mentioned as being a late applicant. NO CHANCE. Several of the BU committee boys at the midweek Camelon game were slagging off the EoSFL. There are a few committee boys in favour of a move but the majority are putting their trust in TJ and/or obsessed with the possibility of losing games v Linlithgow Rose.

[Deanburn Dave]

I predict that TJ will do a good deal for the West Juniors...but the East Juniors will be shafted.

[LongTimeLurker]

 

15 minutes ago, Jambo'ness said:

Not a hope in hell it's Bo'ness.  The majority of the committee are not for moving and trust TJ implicitly.

 

14 hours ago, John S said:

On the Super League list - last name

 

I see now that I misread the numbers on the last page as the first two rows are not used. That means for the superleague you need three from the premier to reach 16 (Forfar WE + Fauldhouse, Tayport, Dunbar?)

in north premier there would be 16 if you add Newburgh, Coupar Angus and Forfar Albion, who are below Brechin Vics in the north division table

in south premier, the 14 shown plus Lochore would be 15 and at that point Glenrothes and Thornton are clubs that could swing both ways in north south terms and as stated earlier are probably tacked onto south premier at this point to bring it up to 17

No clubs missing beyond the 12 known defectors and no evidence of a late applicant.

 

 

Edited May 4, 2018 by LongTimeLurker

[juniorsforme]

14 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

Yes i know but the point I'm making is that if you look 5-6 years ahead, the top 4 SL clubs at the moment will potentially be in the LL anyway and clubs below that will be split regionally.

Personally I think the direction should be towards a league at tier 6 to reflect the SFA East Region which covers Angus, Dundee, Perth & Kinross and Fife.

So Lochee, Tayport and Carnoustie could be up there challenging for titles every season and without the threat of relegation hanging over them, without unneccesary travel costs and with a chance of promotion to the LL (if they can sort out this 'north of Tay' line) and if the clubs can work towards a licence. What's the point in those clubs being in the same league as Newtongrange, Penicuik, Dunbar, Arniston at this level? I'm not sure it adds anything to Linlithgow or Bo'ness either.

So I think the ERJFA should abolish the superleague and split the regions up geographically now to prepare for the future integration.

You are making assumptions that Linlithgow and Bo'ness will move on. Since the inception off the ERJFA no club has domintated year after year. This has kept it interesting and competitive the clubs who were up there like Bathgate, Whitburn maybe not doing as well just now but who is to say they won't come back and have another succesfull period. 

To end, I would say the Juniors have a good product but we do have area's that can be improved upon.