Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

2 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

That's exactly what you've done with your WoS league conjured out of thin air followed by another series of if, buts and maybes.

I posted nothing of the sort.

The WoSFL isn't conjured out of thin air, it's been discussed as a solution for well over a year and will probably see the light of day if there continues to be little or no progress at PWG, clubs have discussed it and the EoS has offered assistance should it be required.  That is one of only two ways forward for the west, WRJFA entering en-masse is the other.   you know that, you've been around here long enough so why you are now attacking the idea I don't know.  What is your involvement in the game out of interest?

It's not a fantasy assumption of what might happen if we just dump the Juniors into the Pyramid and hope for the best, which is what LTL suggests.

[AlanCamelonfan]

Maybe boris johnson progrogued the pwg and that's how weve heard nothing. Be more team crashing out the juniors with no deal

[Marshmallo]

5 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

3. SOS becomes the WOS and has a season of conferences, SJFA stay outside the pyramid all clubs who want in the pyramid from Oban down to the border join the WOS. All clubs who don’t want to join stay Junior or amateur.

We should eventually end up with 2 feeders to the LL one East and one West each gets an automatic promotion spot and an East v West playoff for the third place. Personally id like to see options 3 and let any juniors who want to stay Junior do so until such time as they decide to move or the grade is no longer viable.

IMO this is absolutely the correct option and would agree with 3 up, 3 down from LL.

[Marten]

1 hour ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

Maybe boris johnson progrogued the pwg and that's how weve heard nothing. Be more team crashing out the juniors with no deal

I wonder what measures TJ has taken to combat a no-deal?

[FairWeatherFan]

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

I posted nothing of the sort.

The WoSFL isn't conjured out of thin air

 

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

As has been said umpteen times, and by other posters, set-up a WoSFL

I didn't realise the immense power of the PnB posters in organising semi professional leagues. Next stop Highland League 2, or Lowland League 2, or the Tayside League, or wasn't there a North/Central and South leagues, or the North/West/East Leagues at Tier 5. Or are we waiting on the Scottish Premiership and Championship becoming 16 team leagues with everything else being regionalised? I'm I missing something like Apetura/Clausura set ups?

 

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

 and let clubs apply as a first step. 

Ah, so the first step in the entirely based in reality and in no way plucked out of thin air league is for clubs to apply to it. Hmmm? is this still PnB organising it? Because BSC gave up on their WoSFL for their reserves league plan since they're in the SPFL Reserve League 2 and the LL u20s has been beefed up. The Lowland League moved into LL2 territory since it strengthens their position. The SFA is trying to mediate the SJFA entry. The SJFA are trying to negotiate their entry. The EoSFL had their offer to assist West clubs summer 2018 and presumably summer 2019 and no one took it up. So that kind of only leaves the clubs themselves. Are they applying to be in their own league?

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

The gap in the Pyramid south of the line is therefore filled, HL/LL -- EoS/WoS/SoS.

Except that still leaves the East Region trying to negotiate their entry into the pyramid. And some of the parties involved in this seem okay with the concept of the HL/LL boundary being moved.

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

All Junior clubs  then have an option.

Yeah for the 38 members of the SJFA East Region to negotiate their entry into the Lowland League catchment area. They do still have that option because you never bothered to deal with that issue.

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Second step is to deal with Tayside/North, which may take longer, or may not happen at all if they are happy to remain as they are, same with the North Juniors.

Also known as "I got what I wanted so I don't care about an all inclusive pyramid set up for semi-professional clubs playing in predominantly enclosed grounds."

5 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

It's not a fantasy assumption of what might happen if we just dump the Juniors into the Pyramid and hope for the best, which is what LTL suggests.

Are we sure it's not a fantasy assumption?

 

6 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

 you've been around here long enough so why you are now attacking the idea I don't know.  What is your involvement in the game out of interest?

I have. Still don't see a place for the SJFA in the pyramid. Still think the HL/LL boundary is perfectly acceptable and should be enforced. Still think a Lowland League 2 or Lowland League 2 West/East will solve most of these problems pretty quickly.

As for my involvement in the game, that seems like a weird question to be asking after all these years and previous agreements and disagreements. I live up to my name that's why I picked it, i'm just a football fan. Shook the Old Firm duopoly by primary school's end. Moved around so no fixed team and usually pop around to whoever's local. Miss the days of the Dumbarton/Clydebank Boghead groundshare so I would be guaranteed a home game basically every week of the season.

[BTID]

Pretty sad state of affairs on mcbookies odds 26/30 favourites for the Scottish junior cup are from the west region.   

Wish the west situation would just get a move on and decide one way or another every year is a hinderance. 

Ive currently got no where to take my 19s team next season with their development finishing there due to the incompatibility of West 21s. A West u20s could be so exciting, especially with so many great setups in the east. 

 

A proper u20 Scottish cup. A west-east champion of champions playoff? Makes so much sense. 

[LongTimeLurker]

9 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

...The SFA is trying to mediate the SJFA entry...

Think it's more a case of the SFA Board having issued a directive to the PWG to facilitate SJFA entry pronto. Hence why certain posters on here naively thought that meant they were definitely in for this season. The EoS were able to block progress towards SJFA entry on the technicality that they have to approve changes to the LL entry playoff format. It appears to be a lot more important to the people involved with the nonleague seniors in the LL catchment that the SJFA be brought to a definitive end than it is that an all-encompassing pyramid be formed on the shortest possible timeline.

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think it's more a case of the SFA Board having issued a directive to the PWG to facilitate SJFA entry pronto. Hence why certain posters on here naively thought that meant they were definitely in for this season. The EoS were able to block progress towards SJFA entry on the technicality that they have to approve changes to the LL entry playoff format. It appears to be a lot more important to the people involved with the nonleague seniors in the LL catchment that the SJFA be brought to a definitive end than it is that an all-encompassing pyramid be formed on the shortest possible timeline.

They finally got the concession from the SFA that they would run discliplinary for all Tier 6 leagues. Theoretically if that's 16-16-14 or 16 the SJFA is no longer taking fines from 46-48 clubs on top of having lost the previous 20+ to the EoSFL. With the Junior Cup forced to fit around league seasons that's two hefty hits to the SJFA pocket book.

You'd also have the likes of Auchinleck, Cumnock, Petershill and Clydebank becoming SFA members, so the SJFA starts to seem more pointless as an entity as time goes on.

[Burnie_man]

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

I didn't realise the immense power of the PnB posters in organising semi professional leagues. Next stop Highland League 2, or Lowland League 2, or the Tayside League, or wasn't there a North/Central and South leagues, or the North/West/East Leagues at Tier 5. Or are we waiting on the Scottish Premiership and Championship becoming 16 team leagues with everything else being regionalised? I'm I missing something like Apetura/Clausura set ups?

I think you are clearly missing something if you have not been aware of the possibility of a WoSFL.  It has been discussed outwith the confines of this forum. The Tayside League has been discussed and noted in minutes published on here.  The LL has formed a sub committee on LL2.  Discussions on here are the result of actions by clubs/leagues.

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

 

Ah, so the first step in the entirely based in reality and in no way plucked out of thin air league is for clubs to apply to it. Hmmm? is this still PnB organising it? Because BSC gave up on their WoSFL for their reserves league plan since they're in the SPFL Reserve League 2 and the LL u20s has been beefed up. The Lowland League moved into LL2 territory since it strengthens their position. The SFA is trying to mediate the SJFA entry. The SJFA are trying to negotiate their entry. The EoSFL had their offer to assist West clubs summer 2018 and presumably summer 2019 and no one took it up. So that kind of only leaves the clubs themselves. Are they applying to be in their own league?

You seem to have a bit of a beef about the suggestion of an independent WoSFL, why is that?  The west clubs were happy to let the SJFA/WRJFA run with the "done deal" promise of entry this season, unsurprisingly it didn't happen for reasons debated on here for months. How long will they let it run this season before they look at alternatives?

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Except that still leaves the East Region trying to negotiate their entry into the pyramid. And some of the parties involved in this seem okay with the concept of the HL/LL boundary being moved.

Yeah for the 38 members of the SJFA East Region to negotiate their entry into the Lowland League catchment area. They do still have that option because you never bothered to deal with that issue.

The ERJFA have no place in the Pyramid, the EoS are the senior league in the east of Scotland.  Clubs either remain Junior of move to EoS.  I doubt the boundary will be moved anyway.

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Also known as "I got what I wanted so I don't care about an all inclusive pyramid set up for semi-professional clubs playing in predominantly enclosed grounds."

I think it's called fantasy if you think that we can get to the point of an inclusive Pyramid for semi-professional clubs all in the one go, all in the one step. We can't. That isn't a case of not caring, it's dealing with reality and looking for alternatives to make at least some progress.  We also have to accept that there are Junior clubs who want to remain Juniors under the SJFA. Should they be forced to move? the SFA can't/won't abolish the SJFA.

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I have. Still don't see a place for the SJFA in the pyramid. Still think the HL/LL boundary is perfectly acceptable and should be enforced. Still think a Lowland League 2 or Lowland League 2 West/East will solve most of these problems pretty quickly.

I don't disagree with you that a LL2 West/East would move things on, and perhaps it's still being worked on by the LL, but it is little different to an independent WoSFL being set-up.  the only difference would be the LL running tier 6 as opposed to the EoS/SoS/WoS. It might happen, it might not.

 

11 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

As for my involvement in the game, that seems like a weird question to be asking after all these years and previous agreements and disagreements. I live up to my name that's why I picked it, i'm just a football fan. Shook the Old Firm duopoly by primary school's end. Moved around so no fixed team and usually pop around to whoever's local. Miss the days of the Dumbarton/Clydebank Boghead groundshare so I would be guaranteed a home game basically every week of the season.

Just curious.  I do find that opinions differ between those involved in the game and those who are just fans.  Not a criticism by the way.

I think we both hold the same view on where we need to go, but differ slightly on how to get there. No big deal, my main beef is dropping the Juniors into the Pyramid just so the SFA can wipe their hands and say "done deal", and walk away from the clusterfuck they will have created.

[Burnie_man]

19 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

Think it's more a case of the SFA Board having issued a directive to the PWG to facilitate SJFA entry pronto. Hence why certain posters on here naively thought that meant they were definitely in for this season. The EoS were able to block progress towards SJFA entry on the technicality that they have to approve changes to the LL entry playoff format. It appears to be a lot more important to the people involved with the nonleague seniors in the LL catchment that the SJFA be brought to a definitive end than it is that an all-encompassing pyramid be formed on the shortest possible timeline.

To repeat.  the EoS did not block WRJFA entry for this season.  the SJFA did that.

[Burnie_man]

13 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They finally got the concession from the SFA that they would run discliplinary for all Tier 6 leagues. Theoretically if that's 16-16-14 or 16 the SJFA is no longer taking fines from 46-48 clubs on top of having lost the previous 20+ to the EoSFL. With the Junior Cup forced to fit around league seasons that's two hefty hits to the SJFA pocket book.

You'd also have the likes of Auchinleck, Cumnock, Petershill and Clydebank becoming SFA members, so the SJFA starts to seem more pointless as an entity as time goes on.

I think the SJFA/Regions  are still taking fines, someone can correct me if that's changed.

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

They finally got the concession from the SFA that they would run discliplinary for all Tier 6 leagues. Theoretically if that's 16-16-14 or 16 the SJFA is no longer taking fines from 46-48 clubs on top of having lost the previous 20+ to the EoSFL. With the Junior Cup forced to fit around league seasons that's two hefty hits to the SJFA pocket book.

You'd also have the likes of Auchinleck, Cumnock, Petershill and Clydebank becoming SFA members, so the SJFA starts to seem more pointless as an entity as time goes on.

If the WRSJFA and ERSJFA had entered this season, the SJFA would definitely have turned into an irrelevance as the years passed and a relic from another era in a Forfarshire FA sort of way but that's clearly not enough for some people, so you have to question whether lurking underneath it all there could be an "it's ma baw and you're no playing" self-interest agenda, especially where some of the founding LL clubs are concerned. Clubs like Spartans can pretty much forget ever playing in the SPFL if the likes of Clydebank, Auchinleck Talbot, Beith and Pollok ever entered the LL stage right. Many of the people who tend to drone on about excluding the juniors from the Scottish Cup probably viewed the introduction of pyramid as a senior grade only thing rather than the first step to a continental style league structure.

[LongTimeLurker]

12 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

To repeat.  the EoS did not block WRJFA entry for this season.  the SJFA did that.

It is the SJFA who are negotiating entry in PWG meetings not the WRSJA. As stated the EoS did block SJFA entry. That is 100% factual

Edited September 13, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[Burnie_man]

It is the SJFA who are negotiating entry in PWG meetings not the WRSJA. As stated the EoS did block SJFA entry. That is 100% factual

It's not, you've been told that many times.

[Burnie_man]

If the WRSJFA and ERSJFA had entered this season, the SJFA would definitely have turned into an irrelevance as the years passed and a relic from another era in a Forfarshire FA sort of way but that's clearly not enough for some people, so you have to question whether lurking underneath it all there could be an "it's ma baw and you're no playing" self-interest agenda, especially where some of the founding LL clubs are concerned. Clubs like Spartans can pretty much forget ever playing in the SPFL if the likes of Clydebank, Auchinleck Talbot, Beith and Pollok ever entered the LL stage right. Many of the people who tend to drone on about excluding the juniors from the Scottish Cup probably viewed the introduction of pyramid as a senior grade only thing rather than the first step to a continental style league structure.

You're posts become increasingly deluded.

 

[Black & Red Socks]

20 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

It is the SJFA who are negotiating entry in PWG meetings not the WRSJA. As stated the EoS did block SJFA entry. That is 100% factual

You just drone on and on and on about the same thing despite numerous different posters making it abundantly clear that there is absolutely no opposition to the west region clubs entering the pyramid, either as a whole or through the formation of a WoSFL. Hitching the west region wagon to the east region one is what put paid to the west being in the Pyramid this year and this is an SJFA policy (a pretty blurry one when you consider the 'all-in' mantra doesn't really mean 'all-in' when the north region is being left to do its own thing). You constantly clinging to the absurdity of your recent raft of posts won't change that. If the SJFA representatives on the PWG play their cards in the same way you do then no wonder we can't move on.

[LongTimeLurker]

How does any of that negate the point I made? The EoS blocked the SJFA from entering last season through the 'all-in' approach. That is fact. I am not saying that they blocked the WRSJFA from getting in unilaterally. Do you really not grasp that nuance? It's far from clear what the scenario is with the North Region. As long as the HL has more potential vacancies than there are licensed clubs with floodlights available to fill them there is no obvious need for promotion and relegation.

Edited September 13, 2019 by LongTimeLurker

[FairWeatherFan]

55 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think you are clearly missing something if you have not been aware of the possibility of a WoSFL.  It has been discussed outwith the confines of this forum. The Tayside League has been discussed and noted in minutes published on here.  The LL has formed a sub committee on LL2.  Discussions on here are the result of actions by clubs/leagues.

BSC were the original people to attempt it for their reserves, they've since moved on. The Lowland League are looking into Lowland League 2. The EoSFL seem to be the ones that have proposed a West league but nobody has taken them up on it and everyone else is more focused on getting the West Region in. Since there's no formal proposal it has as much validity as all the other half baked ideas that don't go anywhere.

As for the Tayside league there seems to be the idea that such a thing would feed into the Lowland League which is why no Tayside clubs have been included in the Highland League Pyramid discussion. It seems to be the compromise solution by the EoSFL to get the East Region clubs in the pyramid, the concession being it would feed the LL. And the sticking point is the SJFA don't want to split the East Region by telling half the clubs to join the EoSFL.

55 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think it's called fantasy if you think that we can get to the point of an inclusive Pyramid for semi-professional clubs all in the one go, all in the one step.

2019-20 there's a Lowland League play-off involving the EoS Premier champion, SoSFL champion, West Premiership champion and East Superleague champion. If licensed of course. All sitting at Tier 6 of the Scottish Football Pyramid with divisions below seeing promotion and relegation between them. 173 clubs in the Lowland League area alone. 10x as many in the Lowland area as in the Highland area. All of them putting pressure on the North Region, NCL and HFL to get something sorted.

157 of them saying one promotion place isn't enough to the Lowland League.

Could have happened. That's not fantasy.

Edited September 13, 2019 by FairWeatherFan

[FairWeatherFan]

49 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I think the SJFA/Regions  are still taking fines, someone can correct me if that's changed.

Right now the SFA aren't running the disclipinary. The SJFA are trialling the SFA rules to show they can do it. If they were Tier 6 leagues and the SFA were doing all the work, i'm not sure how the SJFA could have their hand out to collect fines. Especially since their excuse for collecting fines is to finance their disclipinary operation.

[Burnie_man]

28 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

2019-20 there's a Lowland League play-off involving the EoS Premier champion, SoSFL champion, West Premiership champion and East Superleague champion. If licensed of course. All sitting at Tier 6 of the Scottish Football Pyramid with divisions below seeing promotion and relegation between them. 173 clubs in the Lowland League area alone. 10x as many in the Lowland area as in the Highland area. All of them putting pressure on the North Region, NCL and HFL to get something sorted.

157 of them saying one promotion place isn't enough to the Lowland League.

Could have happened. That's not fantasy.

That's not all in the one step though.  Would have been LL area first and the HL next at some point down the line.

That is how it's probably going to have to progress.  West first (WoS or WRJFA), then East/Tayside (several different solutions), which then may link into HL/NRJFA.

If all WRJFA clubs are behind moving into the Pyramid then all well and good (it should already have happened) but I get the impression that this is no longer the case, despite the fact that nothing will change for the majority of them.  Then there is the uncertainty over the Junior Cup and whether that has a place in the Pyramid. Some clubs appear very attached to it.  So there could be a situation where some want to move, some don't, and the tipping point may come at the turn of the year if little or no progress has been made at PWG. A WoSFL will then come a little closer IMO, providing clubs with a choice and allowing the west to enter the Pyramid.

All of the above has to be disassociated with the East, that requires a different solution.  As we all know, dropping the ERJFA in just like the WRJFA is a non-starter, unanimously rejected by LL and EoS, plus the boundary issue. That approach needs to go and another is required.  TJ and the SJFA will try to cling to "all-in" no doubt and if they do, we wont see progress.  Meantime, the option remains for south of Tay clubs to join the EoS.

The unknown is the LL2 issue. Has any serious discussion taken place as yet with the working group formed by the LL, has it reached a conclusion to the point of having a proposal to present to PWG. We'll see. That potentially could shift everything.

So, the next step is to call another PWG meeting, which really needs to involve the Regions, not just the SJFA. That may have happened, I've not heard anything. However the clock continues to tick on next season and you've probably got until end of March to get agreement, a little over 6 months away. Not long.

 

 

Edited September 13, 2019 by Burnie_man