Junior football, what is the future?

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, Cyclizine said:

First point: the league's responsibility is only to the clubs, not to produce players for the national team.

Second point: arguing that the national team is underachieving because Elgin play in the national divisions is madness.

The SFA is an association of the clubs.  The SFA is responsible for the national team.

Berwick v Elgin in a national league fixture was madness. Especially on a Tuesday night.

[Ray Patterson]

Would just like to point out now that the IIFHS - the well-respected International Institute of Football Historians and Statisticians - recently came out with their annual ranking of football leagues. They placed the Scottish Premiership in 12th best in the World. According to UEFA, the Scottish Premiership this season is the 6th best league in Europe. Our national side is two very winnable matches away from qualifying for a major tournament. Our crowds are the highest in Europe, we have the most full-time clubs per capita in Europe, currently at 22-25 depending on definitions. In England, that number is around 100-105. We have seen clubs open up new facilities at all levels of the game.

Maybe we need to be a bit more positive about the game as it is so far. Rather than get annoyed at Elgin or Albion Rovers or Annan because they play football nationwide.

Why are people so f*****g negative in this country?

Rant over haha.

 

 

Edited February 23, 2020 by ArabAuslander

[GordonS]

Oh, I thought people were kidding when they said regionalising higher up would help the national team... 

FWIW I think it makes as close to no difference at all as it's possible to be, and the overwhelming reason we're much more shite than we should be is the structure and culture of youth football, plus a stone-age mentality that leads us to yell at players to hoof it if they pass along the back more than twice. 

Hoping we get back on topic soon, this is a discussion for elsewhere.

[parsforlife]

Just now, Che Dail said:

Some East of Scotland and Lowland League clubs have 3 times as many PLAYERS than Albion Rovers average attendance. 

Maybe all the Croatians are playing rather than watching their equivalent local team, and that's why they're better at the game than us.

I’m not sure what your first sentence is trying to say. 

our participation rates aren’t great, especially when you go into adult football.  But that’s got very little to do with how the top end of the semi-pro game is structured. you were to ask 100 people why they don’t play football on a weekly basis I find it difficult to believe you’d find any that would list ‘cos Annan travel to Elgin 2 times a year’ in their top 10 reasons why.

want to improve the numbers playing the game ? Go ahead(in the appropriate forum) , but let’s not be attacking the club game which largely is doing just fine.

[Born To Run]

This may be of interest.

As part of my prep for the piece I'm writing, I asked a couple of questions to representatives from senior & junior clubs as well as the Lowland. I'm sharing the full Q&As before the article comes out Sunday/Monday, so that people can refer to them without my editing clouding any judgments.

Full Q&As - Thanks to all that gave me their time and answers.

[pheasant plucker]

We played Kilwinning today in a friendly and it was great to see their new facility progressing. It looks like a community facility that will be the heart of football development In Kilwinning.
I know the future seems uncertain for junior football and many junior clubs, but what I have seen in my short time in junior football is the importance junior clubs have within their respective communities. Irrespective of where each clubs future may be, everyone has responsibility to ensure each club has a future no matter what league they decide their future may be in.
In today’s society places where communities can come together young and old, a place where they have a shared passion and togetherness is becoming less and less. In my time in junior football I have found theses club and communities truly inspiring, whatever journey your club takes I hope it’s a successful one and those traditions and that environment for community empowerment isn’t lost. 

Hallelujah brother [emoji869]

[Che Dail]

8 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I’m not sure what your first sentence is trying to say. 

our participation rates aren’t great, especially when you go into adult football.  But that’s got very little to do with how the top end of the semi-pro game is structured. you were to ask 100 people why they don’t play football on a weekly basis I find it difficult to believe you’d find any that would list ‘cos Annan travel to Elgin 2 times a year’ in their top 10 reasons why.

want to improve the numbers playing the game ? Go ahead(in the appropriate forum) , but let’s not be attacking the club game which largely is doing just fine.

I'm saying that having 900 youth players participating in football is more impressive than a stand alone team with just 300 supporters.

What is your definition of doing fine? How many clubs in SPL2 are just about surviving? 

[Ray Patterson]

2 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I'm saying that having 900 youth players participating in football is more impressive than a stand alone team with just 300 supporters.

What is your definition of doing fine? How many clubs in SPL2 are just about surviving? 

SPL2 is not a league. Clubs are always struggling tbf.

If you mean the Championship, then yes clubs are struggling but tbf they've being helped massively since the SPL and SFL merged about 8 years ago. The winners of the Old First Division pocketed around £65k in 2011-12, that figure is now £625,000.

Not quite sure what that figure was for League 2 (old Third Division) but it probably was £10-15k at best. Now the bottom club receives £45,000 in prize money. They also receive a home game against a Full Time club every season via the Betfred Cup and with the advent of YouTube and Twitter as well as increased TV Coverage, have received more limelight than they've had ever.

There were 20 FT Clubs in 2005, now there's 22 FT clubs with another few that have hybrid system to some extent. 

Clubs in lower reaches of Scottish Football have never had it so good.

 

[Che Dail]

26 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

Maybe we need to be a bit more positive about the game as it is so far. Rather than get annoyed at Elgin or Albion Rovers or Annan because they play football nationwide.

Why are people so f*****g negative in this country?

Rant over haha.

Just to clarify... I am in fact talking up the non-league game, and I think 'The future for Junior Football' potentially has far-reaching and positive benefits for Scottish Football.  I just wish change would happen quicker.  This thread is nearly 3 years old - things are happening now, which is great, but it is important to look at the bigger picture.

I'm not annoyed at the clubs referred to, I just think they'd be better served playing regional football, and it would be better for everyone else too - that's all.

I agree that we should be more positive, but unfortunately there's not been much to cheer about lately when it comes to the national side - the results (and poor decision making) are undeniable and plain for all to see.  But you are correct - we could reach a major finals soon, and the mood will improve.  

You have to admit that the Old Firm distorts figures in terms of the performance of our top league in terms of finances and attendances.  And I don't think having a high proportion of full-time clubs per head of capita should be a badge of honour... Iceland has no full-time clubs, for example.

 

[Che Dail]

6 minutes ago, ArabAuslander said:

SPL2 is not a league. Clubs are always struggling tbf.

If you mean the Championship, then yes clubs are struggling but tbf they've being helped massively since the SPL and SFL merged about 8 years ago. The winners of the Old First Division pocketed around £65k in 2011-12, that figure is now £625,000.

Not quite sure what that figure was for League 2 (old Third Division) but it probably was £10-15k at best. Now the bottom club receives £45,000 in prize money. They also receive a home game against a Full Time club every season via the Betfred Cup and with the advent of YouTube and Twitter as well as increased TV Coverage, have received more limelight than they've had ever.

There were 20 FT Clubs in 2005, now there's 22 FT clubs with another few that have hybrid system to some extent. 

Clubs in lower reaches of Scottish Football have never had it so good.

 

I actually meant L2, but L1 also, and Champ as you say.

I agree about the financial incentives improving for lower league clubs... but that wouldn't necessarily change in a regional structure - the Lowland League is going to get stronger year on year, especially after the WoS gets involved. 

No matter what, there should at least be a greater flow through to L2 -  it should be opened up.

 

 

[Ray Patterson]

3 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

No matter what, there should at least be a greater flow through to L2 -  it should be opened up.

I agree with you there, the only change I would make to the League Structure is go from a 12-10-10-10 to a 12-14-10-10 and remove the playoff berth for 4th place in L1 and L2, with auto relegation from L2.

[Che Dail]

1 minute ago, ArabAuslander said:

I agree with you there, the only change I would make to the League Structure is go from a 12-10-10-10 to a 12-14-10-10 and remove the playoff berth for 4th place in L1 and L2, with auto relegation from L2.

Even just 12-12-16 would be an improvement.

Look at Belgium, number 1 in the world.  Double our population, easy to travel around: just 24 pro clubs at T1 and T2, a 16 team 'amateur' league at T3, and regional below that.  

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_football_league_system

 

[Burnie_man]

On topic?

[Gordon EF]

56 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I was trying to keep it simple for you: Look at success, and copy it. 

Failure / Stupidity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results each time.

You are being far too simplistic though.

It's utterly moronic to say that we should copy one aspect of the Welsh league system because their national team have had more recent success than ours when, as has already been pointed out, not one player who plays for the national team has ever played in the Welsh league, never mind the regional tiers.

We're talking about the semi-professional / amateur game here. No footballing authority with a shred of intelligence thinks that the structure of it's semi-professional leagues is what the success of the national team hangs on.

There are currently only five  L1/2 clubs outwith the arc of central Scotland that goes from Dunbartonshire, through Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Central Scotland, Edinburgh, Fife and Angus. This is a relatively small geographical area. Certainly smaller than many of the areas covering regional leagues in other countries. Regionalising tiers 3 and 4 wouldn't cut down the travelling time and cost of a lot of these clubs because they're already staying within central Scotland for most away games. I think East Fife, for example, would actually travel further if they were in a regionalised tier 3 'North' compared to the current L1.

The clubs who'd see significant travel reduction would really only be Peterhead, Elgin, Cove, Stranraer and Annan.

Most Stranraer players are Glasgow based so let's take them out and assume the other four use primarily locally based players.

Do you realise how utterly insane it sounds to say that saving Peterhead, Elgin City, Cove Rangers and Annan Athletic an average of around 5 long away journeys per year might lead to Scotland qualifying for a World Cup they otherwise wouldn't have gotten to?

Yes, looking at what successful countries / people / organisations do and trying to emulate it is a good idea. But people who do that successfully need to evaluate what others do and put thought into how they can adapt that for themselves.

What you're saying is the equivalent of saying "Well Donald Trump is rich and has an orange face. Coincidence? Maybe if I tan the f**k out of my face, I'd be rich too"

[Che Dail]

3 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

On topic?

sorry 

[Che Dail]

4 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

You are being far too simplistic though.

It's utterly moronic to say that we should copy one aspect of the Welsh league system because their national team have had more recent success than ours when, as has already been pointed out, not one player who plays for the national team has ever played in the Welsh league, never mind the regional tiers.

We're talking about the semi-professional / amateur game here. No footballing authority with a shred of intelligence thinks that the structure of it's semi-professional leagues is what the success of the national team hangs on.

There are currently only five  L1/2 clubs outwith the arc of central Scotland that goes from Dunbartonshire, through Glasgow, Lanarkshire, Central Scotland, Edinburgh, Fife and Angus. This is a relatively small geographical area. Certainly smaller than many of the areas covering regional leagues in other countries. Regionalising tiers 3 and 4 wouldn't cut down the travelling time and cost of a lot of these clubs because they're already staying within central Scotland for most away games. I think East Fife, for example, would actually travel further if they were in a regionalised tier 3 'North' compared to the current L1.

The clubs who'd see significant travel reduction would really only be Peterhead, Elgin, Cove, Stranraer and Annan.

Most Stranraer players are Glasgow based so let's take them out and assume the other four use primarily locally based players.

Do you realise how utterly insane it sounds to say that saving Peterhead, Elgin City, Cove Rangers and Annan Athletic an average of around 5 long away journeys per year might lead to Scotland qualifying for a World Cup they otherwise wouldn't have gotten to?

Yes, looking at what successful countries / people / organisations do and trying to emulate it is a good idea. But people who do that successfully need to evaluate what others do and put thought into how they can adapt that for themselves.

What you're saying is the equivalent of saying "Well Donald Trump is rich and has an orange face. Coincidence? Maybe if I tan the f**k out of my face, I'd be rich too"

I got some advice once never to argue with morons / idiots / insane (INSERT YOUR INSULT HERE) because to bystanders it just looks like two idiots arguing.  You've made your point fairly clear, you think my suggestion is stoopid.

But what about Belgium tho? Best in the world and completely changed the league structure in 2016.  Always innovating, open to change, intelligent:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_football_league_system

[Gordon EF]

6 minutes ago, Che Dail said:

I got some advice once never to argue with morons / idiots / insane (INSERT YOUR INSULT HERE) because to bystanders it just looks like two idiots arguing.  You've made your point fairly clear, you think my suggestion is stoopid.

But what about Belgium tho? Best in the world and completely changed the league structure in 2016.  Always innovating, open to change, intelligent:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_football_league_system

I'm not against change at all. I'm very pro pyramid and would personally like to see us go 12-12-16 with LL and HL league structures starting at tier 4.

But the reality is that's not going to make Scotland suddenly start producing world class players.

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, Che Dail said:

It's not entirely off-topic, it is interesting and relevant - because ultimately this whole discussion is about the ongoing enhancement and structuring of the 'non-league' game in Scotland, and the effect it is already having on the leagues above.

The 1960s is seen as something as a glory era for Scottish Football.  We had world class players, yet the national team did not qualify for world cups.  It is the next generation of players that came through and got us to consecutive tournaments in 78, 82, 86, 90.  

How to explain this? One possible answer is understand what the crop of players from 78-82 were doing in, say, 1967.  Well, they were playing lots of football, inspired by their idols.  I'm leaning on the principles behind studies in Freakonomics: A Rogue Economist Explores the Hidden Side of Everything which examines statistical quirks (eg a sudden drop in crime rate in New York) and seeks to attribute them to historical data / socio-economic circumstances / changes in law etc.

In 1967 Kenny Dalglish and Joe Jordan were 16; Souness, 14; Hansen, 12; Leighton, 9; Willie Miller, 12; McLeish, 8; Strachan, 10  and so on.  What was the environment like when they were growing up and loving football as kids?  Inspiring, because of all the top players and great teams to look up to, plus all the success.  BUT a key factor was the amount of hours they played as youngsters.  There are various empirical studies that have been carried out to back this up.   

Another environmental factor: there were very few cars on the roads (<1m in ‘67, >3m in 2015) particularly in less affluent areas.  This meant that the boys would be kicking a ball around day and night in the street, in the parks, wherever, with their pals. There was a football pitch in every street.  They got their 10,000 hours practice* without even realising it before attaining 'genius' level by the time they served the country so well.  They learned to improvise themselves, with their pals.  Alan Hansen said he was never coached until he signed for Liverpool.

*See Malcolm Gladwell (Outliers) and Mathew Syed (Bounce) for reference.

Fast forward to 1989: Scotland u16s reached the World Cup final at Hampden, beating a Portugal side in the semi-final containing  Luis Figo, Xavier and Paulo Santos.  The Scottish players went on to enjoy professional careers and some gained full caps, but the senior national team has not been successful at all.  There are other examples in more recent years such as the u21s at Toulon and there’s apparently a good crop of youngsters coming though now according to Eric Black - great. 

But what club environment can we expect them to thrive in when they become adults and make the transition?  Why does our apparent success in youth football not translate into actual success at senior and international level? 

Well I think it is partly to do with the league structure, and it should change. And I think every club in Scotland has their part to play to help create the next world-class player.

Most importantly for me, regionalising it at tier three will free up valuable quality time, and therefore money that can be channeled into more productive things, like training and playing.

Time is the most valuable commodity: we need to provide the right platform for kids and elite youth players to dedicate the adequate amount of it to practice  for that 10,000 hours.  It tends to be structured now rather than organically occurring because there are many different competing priorities on people's time nowadays, and the street environment is not conducive to playing football.  Increasing playing time and activity is where more of the focus and rewards for the non-professional clubs should be.   

By reducing the number of clubs in the professional game to 26? (12+14), you focus best v best at the elite level: GOOD.  By regionalising the structure at Tier 3 you free up TIME for every single club and player, and change the focus from solely being a team your town supports, to a club that supports your town and the people in it.  The balance shifts towards your club  increasing participation, and away from the cut-throat nature of the 10 v10 league set up we currently have.  

To use that fabled trip to Elgin from the central belt - it has to be paid for by every club in time and in money. Lets say that is 12 hours per person, of which only 2 are spent playing football, plus warm up and cool down.  18 players + 5 coaching staff @£8 per hour ave(?) = £2208, plus the cost of transport, meals and possibly accommodation.  Add in the money spent by supporters, and of course the carbon footprint : an expensive day, twice a season. 

Every club has a budget: a finite amount of money, it is scarce and valuable. That trip, be it to Stranraer, Brechin, Peterhead, Berwick, Annan etc from the opposite end of the country is disproportionately expensive for small clubs, and over the course of a season I just think the resources would be better utilised on the training ground, and cash invested in facilities instead. 

Money has been invested in facilities in Scotland over the past decade or so and the number of qualified coaches has increased - but this will only get us so far because other countries are doing exactly the same – see Holland / Iceland / Nordic region for example where the number of full size 3G pitches and quality indoor facilities per head of population is higher than ours . 

There are a lot of good things happening in Scotland, but we must improve the transition from successful youth structure (performance schools, pro-club academies etc) to senior football – we've not done it well enough over the last 20-30 years and the national team has suffered.  I think converting T3 to regional would serve development of young players better than the current set-up: more time training, and more opportunities to play at a competitive level where the fear of relegation / financial pressure for promotion is less stark.

And that’s all I’ve got to say about that.

 

I mentioned this before.

22 and a half (Airdrie hybrid) full time teams in Scotland.

26-28 places in 2 top leagues, allowing a few of the best part time teams in, with a regionalised Tier 3 below, i.e. League One North (and East?) and League One South (and West). Cuts the costs, travelling time etc for 20 part time clubs. Those 2 Tier 3 leagues could also be expanded to 12-14 teams to get rid of this 'playing  4 times per season' nonsense.

It allows the current Tier 5 (by that point T4) leagues to feed directly into League One , without multifarious play offs.

The fact that only 2 teams have got in in 5 years shows the current play off system is pish tbqh. 40% success rate is abysmal. 

Bottom team(s) should be out, no second chances.

Cowden avoided the drop twice consecutively, which is a nonsense.

(Nothing personal against Cowden, I worked there for a while, quite liked the place)

[Marshmallo]

Wales, Northern Ireland, Denmark, Croatia, Costa Rica, Iceland 

All countries with the letter E or I in their name, or in some cases both. And all countries who have recently played at major tournaments. 

Certainly something the SFA should be looking at changing if we wish to emulate them.

[Doonhamer1969]

3 hours ago, Gordon EF said:

I'm not against change at all. I'm very pro pyramid and would personally like to see us go 12-12-16 with LL and HL league structures starting at tier 4.

But the reality is that's not going to make Scotland suddenly start producing world class players.

Are you advocating reducing the  SPFL by two clubs ?