Junior football, what is the future?

[Burnie_man]

9 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The South Challenge Cup has a long way to go before it draws in the big game only fans in the way later round junior cup game can.

It will have a longer way to go if it isn't given the chance by having all LL and LL feeder league clubs play in it.  

How about change the name to SFA Trophy, tie it up with Scottish Cup sponsorship, play final at Hampden.  That is an idea being banded around.  There's no intention of dropping it in favour of the Junior Cup, and it is not in the gift of the WRJFA to provide access to non-Junior clubs. It comes with baggage, and divides.

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Why have a divide in the pyramid with some clubs members of the sjfa and some not?

We can swing these arguments round to fit both ways to be honest.

There was clean break in the east, it worked. There doesnt appear to be one in the west, and the west is being led by a man who wants 'history' acknowledged and openly admitted wanting to 'save' the sjfa. ....its a trojan horse divide to continue to further the sjfa cause within the pyramid.

The new league should be free of divide, free of baggage, free of influence from anyone of the mindset outlined above. The current format I fear is doomed from the point of inception, because those who are seeking to hold onto junior status will do and say just about anything to stay in their bubble whilst appearing to buy into the pyramid.

If you buy into the pyramid then buy into it. Drop the junior cup, change rules, drop reinstatement and drop everything else....actually start something new, not a rehash of what you currently have.

Bang on.

[Burnie_man]

7 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

SJFA membership and Junior Cup seems to = Junior Football. His whole approach has been about keeping the grade alive.

 

Yip, and him and his like will crow about still being Junior clubs, and the right to be SJFA members and play in the Junior Cup will be defended vigirously and will be a weeping sore inside the Pyramid.

[Salvo Montalbano]

Your recent posts suggest your more interested in crushing the SJFA than finding a solution.

Bringing the existing WJFA setup into the pyramid is the most sensible solution. Why have divide in the West with clubs in the pyramid and a separate WJFA league? We've already seen what a farce that has become in the East.

All the clubs come across but the new league is under LL rules. All clubs get to retain their SJFA membership and participate in the Scottish Junior Cup albeit the Cup can't take priority over the league any longer. If that is indeed what is proposed then makes perfect sense with comprise from both sides.

And if a club doesn't - for whatever reason - doesn't want to join the pyramid, it what? Disbands? Joins the amateur ranks? Applies to join a West Lothian East Juniors? The West Lothian clubs in particular have seen proper decimation of the Junior "Grade" in the east, they are seeing more clubs in the east leaving and now face the prospect of the West Juniors moving across to the WoSL and yet still, still there are clubs who want to remain Junior no matter what they see in front of them and the evidence suggesting moving would be in their benefit. And that is a perfectly acceptable stance to have. But if this plan goes through then in the West there is no option of staying outwith the pyramid.

[Bestsinceslicebread]

As I have followed this post for the past few years my views have changed considerably, not just due to this post be being at games, speaking with football people, fans etc.. and really Im thinking this isn't going to end well.  We need to get rid of the save the junior attitude because of its 134 year history.  If ANY team joins the pyramid then they are no longer a junior team or amateur team or youth team they are a senior team.  

Some of the posts on here in past two pages are so right, What happens to new teams in the west who wants to join the pyramid, do they have to join the West juniors first, (THIS IS WRONG).
Junior cup, being retained and clubs can play in it keeping its history.  Ffs, the south challenge cup is called that because its all teams in the south, if we get the north and north east sorted then make ONE NON LEAGUE SCO|TTISH JUNIO|R| CUP, end of story.
If you keep the juniors and they connect with the pyramid you are always going to have this shitty junior attitude and I'm meaning like last Tuesdays meeting when someone shouted "f**k THE  LOWLAND LEAGUE" and the attitudes of guys like Gordon Rooney about his views of junior football and senior football and to be honest this is what's is wrong and feel like this will not change with a lot of people.  This is it, football, all levels of football are just that, fucking football, get a grip and stop messing things up.

Also relegation in tier 6 where will Bonnyton go if they join the WOS and then get relegated will they be put into the  junior league, trust me I'm sure that's not what they envisage or signing up for.

Also when all said and done, I don't like the lower down junior clubs being forced to go over to the pyramid because the association all in is going, I'd rather the juniors just remained and kept any team who wanted to remain junior as I don't see a problem with that.

If a junior team joins, let them join to become senior, if a junior team stays let them stay in the junior association. Junior football

Being junior through and through I try to come in at this objectively but really see there's a divide that needs sorted as I'm not looking at this about one club, I'm looking at this as progression of football via the pyramid system.

 

It genuinely is a worry

Edited March 14, 2020 by Bestsinceslicebread

[Marshmallo]

13 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Yip, and him and his like will crow about still being Junior clubs, and the right to be SJFA members and play in the Junior Cup will be defended vigirously and will be a weeping sore inside the Pyramid.

Who cares? Some numpty can be smug on Twitter. Anyone who genuinely cares about the game won't give a toss.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Marshmallo

[theesel1994]

I'm going to assume the one stumbling block remaining is the Junior Cup.

How can the West Region clubs demand that it takes second priority when the other two Regions may not want this?

The other side of the coin is 40~ West clubs leaving plus 6 that have already decided they are leaving may not leave much of a cup anyway.

I think for the WoSL the South Challenge Cup should be the default competition and you can opt in to the Junior Cup.

But it is at least now clear to clubs there will only be one league in the West with Pyramid access so those clubs determined to remain Junior will they still do so like the West Lothian clubs? I can't see it.

 

[Guest]

Looks like the LL have called the west region's bluff because the west region came up with a set of conditions that the LL could actually accomodate without any major problem. We'll find out on the 23rd if there will be any back pedalling by either party when faced with it becoming the new reality.

Whilst I get what you are saying, to produce a 4 part outline of what wrsjfa clubs will 'accept' is ridiculous and fills me with fear that once in the pyramid the wrsjfa will still take this approach and undermine any long term progress. New league, new start and a new wosfl committee required to ensure future progress..... if we dont get that we will still be having the same discussion in 5 years time about 134 year history and 'grade' wars. 

 

 

[cmontheloknow]

The new league (and its competitions) will be senior, so there would be no compelling of any side to join the SJFA, surely? If clubs want to play in the Junior Cup, they would need to be SJFA members. As noted a few pages back, the SJFA would be reclassified as a recognised or affiliated association, within the SFA (p42-43), rather than being an Affiliated National Association (p40).

https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/5422/scottish-fa-handbook-2019-20.pdf

Clubs that wish to maintain their Junior membership would be free to do so, and that will give some additional life to the SJFA which would live on as an 'opt in' cup for those that want into it. I would hope that the South Challenge Cup can grow alongside it.

[Guest]

The new league (and its competitions) will be senior, so there would be no compelling of any side to join the SJFA, surely? If clubs want to play in the Junior Cup, they would need to be SJFA members. As noted a few pages back, the SJFA would be reclassified as a recognised or affiliated association, within the SFA (p42-43), rather than being an Affiliated National Association (p40).
https://www.scottishfa.co.uk/media/5422/scottish-fa-handbook-2019-20.pdf
Clubs that wish to maintain their Junior membership would be free to do so, and that will give some additional life to the SJFA which would live on as an 'opt in' cup for those that want into it. I would hope that the South Challenge Cup can grow alongside it.

Isnt that just delaying the inevitable and pandering to some peoples sense of history and nostalgia?

Move forward as a one not a dysfunctional group of different minded organisations....

[stanley]

Surely everyone would agree that one major non-league cup for all would be best?  It will get very messy if you have some clubs in Junior Cup, some clubs in South Challenge Cup and some clubs in both (and potentially the long-term senior clubs would have no choice about joining the junior cup?).

Great if we get all clubs on board under the same set up but things sound a bit messy at the moment and unnecessarily complicated.  Time for old divisions between seniors/juniors to go for good, not for the divide to continue.

[FairWeatherFan]

43 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

18k for Bo'ness United vs Darvel was impressive enough to provide plenty of nostalgia for me. Remember the moment the trophy was lifted as vividly as if it were yesterday.

I had to check when this was, and it was 44 years ago.

[Pyramidic]

Perhaps we need  a club like Girvan to "test the water"!

Will Girvan be eligible to play in the lower reaches of the WoSFL/ WRJFA new league without being a member of the SJFA?

Simple question for the Junior acolytes to answer please.

[Jack Burton]

And if a club doesn't - for whatever reason - doesn't want to join the pyramid, it what? Disbands? Joins the amateur ranks? Applies to join a West Lothian East Juniors? The West Lothian clubs in particular have seen proper decimation of the Junior "Grade" in the east, they are seeing more clubs in the east leaving and now face the prospect of the West Juniors moving across to the WoSL and yet still, still there are clubs who want to remain Junior no matter what they see in front of them and the evidence suggesting moving would be in their benefit. And that is a perfectly acceptable stance to have. But if this plan goes through then in the West there is no option of staying outwith the pyramid.

Why would they not want to join the pyramid if they are playing the exact same clubs and retain their junior membership with access to the Junior Cup? It also gives you a solution to the remaining East teams in West Lothian they can join the EOS but retain their SJFA membership.

SJFA membership would essentially just be the same as being a member of the Glasgow FA etc.

[Cornishman]

Commenting again, from some distance away. I am truly neutral in this discussion. No axes to grind!

When the English Amateur Cup ceased, it was replaced by the FA Trophy & FA Vase. Both reasonably successful competitions, now with ±50 years of tradition behind them.
Similarly (but, obviously in reverse) the SC & Junior Cups should be 'retired' and most definitely replaced with a national Scottish FA Trophy. Early Rounds can definitely be contested in Regional Groups, becoming random draw at say, the 'Round of 32'. Create 8 Regions ~ Highland/Grampian; Tayside; Fife; West-Central; Mid-Central; East-Central; South-West & Borders. Four from each Region get into those random draw later Rounds.

By all means allow ex-Juniors to retain membership in the SJFA if they wish, however, The Juniors, much like the British Commonwealth, is an anachronistic idea and should henceforth really be perceived as 'a club' like The Rotarian Society.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Cornishman
DYAC!

[Burnie_man]

4 minutes ago, Jack Burton said:

It also gives you a solution to the remaining East teams in West Lothian they can join the EOS but retain their SJFA membership.

SJFA membership would essentially just be the same as being a member of the Glasgow FA etc.

I wouldn't think there's any chance of that happening.

Just another example of why this won't work, leave the baggage behind.

Nobody has yet explained why east clubs can leave it behind, but west clubs demand it be brought along.

[Marshmallo]

6 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Nobody has yet explained why east clubs can leave it behind, but west clubs demand it be brought along.

Their league would be within the pyramid and they would play in a separate cup. Similar to Lowland League teams playing in Lowland area cups which don't include the Highland teams. They both play in the same structure and feed into the same league at tier 4.

[FairWeatherFan]

11 minutes ago, Cornishman said:

Commenting again, from some distance away. I am truly neutral in this discussion. No axes to grind!

When the English Amateur Cup ceased, it was replaced by the FA Trophy & FA Vase. Both reasonably successful competitions, now with ±50 years of tradition behind them.
Similarly (but, obviously in reverse) the SC & Junior Cups should be 'retired' and most definitely replaced with a national Scottish FA Trophy. Early Rounds can definitely be contested in Regional Groups, becoming random draw at say, the 'Round of 32'. Create 8 Regions ~ Highland/Grampian; Tayside; Fife; West-Central; Mid-Central; East-Central; South-West & Borders. Four from each Region get into those random draw later Rounds.

Absolutely. The SFA should be running this competition and not the SJFA or the pyramid leagues as happens with the SCC just now. It's a bit daft that the official name is the SFA South Region Challenge Cup and yet the SFA don't organise it.

As for regionalising earlier rounds, You could do something like that. I wouldn't go as far as 8 Regions. Especially due to the number of clubs and their spread. Truth is until recently the SCC was regionalised in the early rounds (South & West v. North & East).

EDIT: This is something that the SFA could actually do and make it a requirement of licencing. All licenced members have to participate, open invitation to all other clubs in the "SFA pyramid" that do not compete in the SPFL.

Edited March 14, 2020 by FairWeatherFan

[Salvo Montalbano]

Why would they not want to join the pyramid if they are playing the exact same clubs and retain their junior membership with access to the Junior Cup? It also gives you a solution to the remaining East teams in West Lothian they can join the EOS but retain their SJFA membership.

SJFA membership would essentially just be the same as being a member of the Glasgow FA etc.

You'd have to ask them. The West Lothian clubs could be playing the exact same clubs and local rivals but chose not to do that. Even with the threat of the majority of West Region Juniors leaving the SJFA to join the WoSL as it was originally mooted they decided they wanted to remain Junior with access to a much depleted Junior cup and with no chance of progression. There may be well be clubs in the West who feel the same.

[archieb]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

I wouldn't think there's any chance of that happening.

Just another example of why this won't work, leave the baggage behind.

Nobody has yet explained why east clubs can leave it behind, but west clubs demand it be brought along.

So you regard what has happened in the East as an unmitigated success, which you'd like to see mirrored in the West  do you?

Creating a rump set of traditionalist left-behind still-Juniors isolated from their near-neighbours who are slowly deciding to dribble across to the promised land of the pyramid?

Wouldn't it have been so much better if the situation in the East could have been resolved in a one stage of amalgamation involving all the ERSJFA clubs instead of having this chaotic  slow trickle in Fife, the lost land of West Lothian and Tayside in Limbo?

And is it really so undesirable that the West clubs should try to find a way to avoid something like that?