Junior football, what is the future?

[lithgierose]

48 minutes ago, Lroy said:

Here's my version of an expanded league pyramid. teams in each league are based of the league tables from whatever year I did it. I gave up trying to sort teams after tier 3.

 

Stirling albion ?

[Robert James]

3 hours ago, HTG said:

It may not be rocket science but ... if 16 west teams are propelled to tier 6 because there has never been any previous pyramid engagement and the same happens in the north, there are going to be a lot of unhappy junior teams in the east who already had 12 teams at tier 6 (excluding the arrival of Kelty this season and whoever goes next season). And those 12 were there before the pyramid was a thing so it's chance rather than design. 

Effectively we're saying west and north to tier 6 and east to tier 7. If that's how it is, then that's not going to fly and the sjfa cannot negotiate that as a solution. 

Oh no not another attempt at setting off dummy fireworks !

Why are you worrying about Pyramid Tiers in the East for next season, as by all accounts your club is not intending to apply to join the EoSL. (Please correct me if this understanding is wrong).

There is no suggestion that existing  EoSL clubs will have preference over new East Junior clubs in 2018/19. Quite the contrary, as the EoSL is looking to see how best to have clubs on an equal basis in Tier 6 for 2018/19, with positioning based on merit. Numerous earlier posts will explain at least 3 options as to how this could operate, for one season only. Member clubs will have the final say.

What is equally baffling is how you consider that all of the clubs in the West Region, who seek to join the Pyramid next season (unlikely) or in 2019/20 (probable) can be based at Tier 6, as the number of Junior clubs who are interested  will be far too many for a single division. Or are you suggesting that only West Super League clubs should be allowed to join the Pyramid, whilst all others are cast adrift ?    

If their is any advantage at all, it is that the East clubs who apply now will resolve their future quickly , whilst Junior clubs in the West, plus those in the East Region who are wavering,  will be holding EGMs and regional meetings, to decide  "shall we stay, or shall we go" ,  over the next year.

 

 

 

 

 

[Lroy]

Just now, lithgierose said:

Stirling albion ?

Stirling was annoyingly right on the border when I split Highland/Lowland. Stirling Albion ended up in the Highland League, Stirling Uni i the Lowland,

[Lroy]

13 minutes ago, jamamafegan said:

Only thing I’d say is that I don’t like how after the “national league” it goes into highland and lowland. I think their should be another division below that and then the highland and lowland leagues below that.

 

My opinion is that regionalising it below that point would be great. Brings down travel costs for the smaller sides. I feel like 2 top leagues suits the country much better. But, it is purely my thoughts on the matter. Agree to disagree. It's not like I actually have a say.

[Robert James]

44 minutes ago, The Mantis said:

Isa, I asked you this already.

Can you give examples of what you mean by ‘dumbing down?’ What’s wrong with licensing being achievable?  How do you square this with all the Juniors and TJ complaining about £100k toilets etc? How would you dumb it back up again 

Roll on next Monday !!!

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, gogsy said:

Why?

David Baxter will know the number of EoSL applicants, and some real planning can start for next season. No more shadow boxing !

Kelty - Well done by the way. When are the games against LTHV taking place ?

 

[cmontheloknow]

40 minutes ago, Mediocre Pundit said:

Keep the top 12 (as dictated by the four OF game shite) and then have two 16 team leagues below it, then 16 team lowland / highland, then 16 team feeders (east / west and north east / north west) and so on down (with further regional sub-divisions as required) until you run out of clubs that want to be a part of it.

I don’t understand the need to have all junior teams a part of it either - simply state intention of the above and invite applications which will then be placed fairly (under consultation) In future years any team can apply to join at bottom level, but if teams don’t want to join they can stay where they are. Again, simple.

But if most go, what is left? A properly functioning pyramid will have all in. Having a few more Junior sides in is not a pyramid.

Edited March 27, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[newcastle broon]

12 minutes ago, Robert James said:

David Baxter will know the number of EoSL applicants, and some real planning can start for next season. No more shadow boxing !

Kelty - Well done by the way. When are the games against LTHV taking place ?

 

Don't be so lazy and check the eos thread 

From what I see 21st and 28th April. 

Is Baxter on the EoSFL committee  ? 

I thought he was all things LL ? 

Edited March 27, 2018 by newcastle broon

[Robert James]

3 minutes ago, newcastle broon said:

Don't be so lazy and check the eos thread 

From what I see 21st and 28th April. 

Have a  dram on me, for saving me the trouble.

[HTG]

17 minutes ago, Robert James said:

Oh no not another attempt at setting off dummy fireworks !

Why are you worrying about Pyramid Tiers in the East for next season, as by all accounts your club is not intending to apply to join the EoSL. (Please correct me if this understanding is wrong).

There is no suggestion that existing  EoSL clubs will have preference over new East Junior clubs in 2018/19. Quite the contrary, as the EoSL is looking to see how best to have clubs on an equal basis in Tier 6 for 2018/19, with positioning based on merit. Numerous earlier posts will explain at least 3 options as to how this could operate, for one season only. Member clubs will have the final say.

What is equally baffling is how you consider that all of the clubs in the West Region, who seek to join the Pyramid next season (unlikely) or in 2019/20 (probable) can be based at Tier 6, as the number of Junior clubs who are interested  will be far too many for a single division. Or are you suggesting that only West Super League clubs should be allowed to join the Pyramid, whilst all others are cast adrift ?    

If their is any advantage at all, it is that the East clubs who apply now will resolve their future quickly , whilst Junior clubs in the West, plus those in the East Region who are wavering,  will be holding EGMs and regional meetings, to decide  "shall we stay, or shall we go" ,  over the next year.

 

 

 

 

 

With only a modicum of respect you need to actually understand the point being made. In fact, maybe less than a modicum. At no point did I reference the structure in 2018/19. 

If you read the sjfa release you'll see it talks about 2019/20. This is what the vast majority of junior teams will work to now. 

The point made about the west was that the top league should slot in and become tier 6. Logically the 3 leagues below would be 7, 8 and 9.

In the north, the top league can slot in at tier 6 too. 

In the east, that model doesn't work.  You could never slot in 16 teams at tier 6 - and it doesn't actually matter whether you want to talk about 18/19 or 19/20. The east juniors - in comparison to their counterparts in the west and north - could never have had any more than 4 - 6 places available to them if the existing tier 6 is maintained. This is because 12 teams were already there. 

My response was the Kenny from Beith who - logically enough - saw a solution for the west. But if the sjfa and sfa are intent on bringing junior football into the pyramid in 19/20 - as a unit and not on a drip feed of club by club then the east cannot achieve parity with the west and north.  And the sjfa has at leat an obligation to see how that can be resolved. 

You'd know this if you didn't miss out key words when reading what others post. 

[Sergeant Wilson]

1 hour ago, Lroy said:

Here's my version of an expanded league pyramid. teams in each league are based of the league tables from whatever year I did it. I gave up trying to sort teams after tier 3.

 

What I've learned from all this, is there's a lot of people who are fans of structure and organisation, rather than actual football. I've never played computer games, but this is how I imagine some might be.

The football landscape would be vastly different if we were starting out now, but we're not. The above chart is naive at best and ludicrous at worst. To be implemented you'd be asking teams to relegate themselves and possibly go out of business. I don't mind an argument between  the pro and anti pyramid, but shite like the above adds nothing.

[kefc]

Statement from TJ put out  public,  its on Twitter @scottcam67

Reads to me as Junior clubs put your faith and trust in the SJFA to negotiate the very best scenario on your behalf. He stuck 2 fingers up to the pyramid and Licencing for the past 10 years and now clubs got wise to the situation he’s now been booted into action.

His idea looks like we will join en masse alongside and we can get our clubs licenced, enter the Scottish Cup, have referees provided but we will keep our Junior grade and the Scottish Junior Cup for those clubs that stick by us. While your at it give us some extra Scottish Cup places too. 

Non League needs to be all in with everyone working together for the greater good, having splits can’t work. Get every club in together under 1 banner with different regional leagues and boards under tier 5, all clubs can get licenced, Scottish Cup Entry, Scottish Junior Cup open to all non league clubs with possible regional ties for the 1st few rounds to ease travelling for smaller clubs.

Good on TJ for being pro active on the statement but working in different groups and organisations is partly why this mash up is happening, TJ doesn’t seem to see it,  deluded, self preservation mode who knows.

Edited March 27, 2018 by kefc

[Sergeant Wilson]

22 hours ago, Sergeant Wilson said:

There will be a lot of promulgating going on.

 

6 hours ago, glensmad said:

I can't believe anybody has addressed the really big issue here, i.e. Tom Johnstone's blatant and unprovoked use of the word "promulgated". 

 

[Gimme]

As others have alluded to this creates a whole load of problems as to where the Junior clubs slot in.

If the clubs who are rumoured to be moving for next season in the east decide to go despite TJ's pleas then the best any club who remains behind can hope for is Tier 7 in 19/20 but more than likely Tiers 8 and 9.

In the West the SoSL needs to be taken into account and merged into the new West League, its disproportionate to leave it alone. Any west league should cover the area from the HL boundary to the border, as it does in the East. Any existing SoS clubs who want to remain at Tier 6, and there will be some, need to be part of the equation with the remaining places made up by Junior sides etc but the Tier 6 league will likely need to be by application rather than a wholesale move of the Junior Super League to accommodate any other applicants outside the Juniors.

[Guest]

4 hours ago, The Mantis said:

Isa, I asked you this already.

Can you give examples of what you mean by ‘dumbing down?’ What’s wrong with licensing being achievable?  How do you square this with all the Juniors and TJ complaining about £100k toilets etc? How would you dumb it back up again 

Sorry ma man, should have answered you. It is true that the criteria was relaxed, this was I suspect to allow the Pyramid to obtain a full compliment of clubs. Some of the grounds who have obtained a licence are, and I am trying to keep it civil, not that good. This in my opinion was instrumental in creating leagues at tier 5 and 6 populated by clubs who have their place but should be nowhere near these respective grades. For me this illustrated clearly that it didn't really matter to the organisers what kind of set up it was, so long as it was there and referred to as a pyramid. 

It is often said on this forum, what is wrong with clubs having ambition to go as far, as high, as they can. Few can argue with that but it should be earned. What actually happened was lowering standards and frankly credibility. 

By the way Talbot have recently had new toilets installed, not 100k but a fair amount. They were deemed necessary for a stadium in the 21st century, pyramid  or not, club licence or not. 

[cmontheloknow]

Have to say, following Club Licencing documents is not a hobby of mine - were ground standards changed much? I know the overly ambitious pitch size was downgraded. What about cover? Still 100?

[Ginaro]

16 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

It is true that the criteria was relaxed, this was I suspect to allow the Pyramid to obtain a full compliment of clubs. Some of the grounds who have obtained a licence are, and I am trying to keep it civil, not that good. This in my opinion was instrumental in creating leagues at tier 5 and 6 populated by clubs who have their place but should be nowhere near these respective grades.

Tier 6 clubs do not require a licence to join the EoS or SoS - so which ground(s) do you think are "not that good" and shouldn't be allowed in the Lowland League (tier 5)?

[LongTimeLurker]

2 hours ago, kefc said:

...Good on TJ for being pro active on the statement but working in different groups and organisations is partly why this mash up is happening, TJ doesn’t seem to see it,  deluded, self preservation mode who knows.

To be fair to the guy the superduper league thing a couple of years back did look like a way to try to get in at tier 5 alongside the LL in a moderately sensible and coherent sort of way. In England the Isthmian League and Southern League that covered much the same area because historically one had been amateur while the other was part-time professional were both allowed to feed into the conference in the 1980s after the Isthmian league had initially given the pyramid concept the bodyswerve, because respecting old arrangements isn't necessarily a bad starting point for merging previously separate structures. Seriously doubt it will happen as I don't think the SFA will be in a rush to license lots of junior clubs, but a strong case can still be made for tier 5 entry for the west superleague as the best way to quickly deal with the geographical imbalance caused by the LL's membership being largely drawn from the old EoS premier.

Edited March 27, 2018 by LongTimeLurker

[The Mantis]

8 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Tier 6 clubs do not require a licence to join the EoS or SoS - so which ground(s) do you think are "not that good" and shouldn't be allowed in the Lowland League (tier 5)?

I don’t think Isa wants to answer this 

31 minutes ago, Isabel Goudie said:

Sorry ma man, should have answered you. It is true that the criteria was relaxed, this was I suspect to allow the Pyramid to obtain a full compliment of clubs.

You keep saying this but how have they been relaxed? Whitehill reached the standard for the LL soon after it began but the standards haven’t changed since. Also people keep talking about grounds. It’s not the ground that gets the licence, it’s the club. Fair enough you need a first aid room, disabled toilets etc, but you also have to produce proper accounts going back about 3 years for starters. You have to have qualified coaches, physio, etc. Look it up.

[HTG]

The standards are getting a bit tighter in my view.