Junior football, what is the future?

[drs]

Just now, GLENAFTON93 said:

History or not my point was about the bauble description, but again any excuse to have a go.

You still clearly haven't read what I posted. Stop fixating on one word and read the entire sentence. Context is everything.

 

[Goalie Hamish]

Once you join the pyramid and get a licence, sure.
So thats only an extra 3 if you were all to jump next season.
 However its only £3k from round one.  If there are loads of teams getting a licence, then they would reintroduce qualifying rounds, just like in the English FA cup.  Its only from the 1st round proper that the prize money would be payable.

There already is qualifying rounds, and it's £3 or £4k.

[GLENAFTON93]

5 minutes ago, drs said:

Did you actually read what I said?  You need to dry your eyes and see what people have said rather than what you think they have said.

Yes I did and you described our premier trophy as a bauble did you not , I have never heard any Junior supporter ,team or anyone luckily enough to hold this Trophy refer to it as a bauble, but you and many others just don't get it.

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, TheLad said:

 

 

This whole debate isn't about the history, it's about the future. Those who try to grasp onto the past, will be left there.

 

Never said it was, but you propose ignoring the present and capitalising on a huge tournament. The Junior Cup is the biggest tournament in nonleague football in this country, it should be given respect and taken on. I don't know why, I just get the feeling that some of the pro pyramid lobby would rather have superglue expansively applied to their @rse, placed firmly on a skelf ridden plank and allow to set, have someone to rip it aff and skelp them repeatedly on the abruptly skinned posterior, than admit Junior Football can bring anything to the table.   

[GLENAFTON93]

5 minutes ago, drs said:

You still clearly haven't read what I posted. Stop fixating on one word and read the entire sentence. Context is everything.

 

I have read your full post, and in general I have agreed with some of your previous  points, but our premier trophy deserves more than a bauble description , this is my last comment to you about this.

[Robert James]

4 minutes ago, Goalie Hamish said:

The Junior Cup should be gracefully retired and a new all encompassing non league trophy instituted. Keeping the name Junior Cup is clearly ludicrous.

GH - I normally agree with you, but not this time !

If a rump of (say) 50  Junior clubs (not interested in being part of a Pyramid) want to retain a trophy called the Junior Cup, then it should be a matter for the remaining Members of the SJFA to vote on it,  and decide. They would be entitled to do so.

Having an 'SFA Non League Trophy' would be a good idea, if fixture lists don't make it impossible. This would be a matter for the SFA and Pyramid clubs to decide in due course. 

[Enigma]

The Junior Cup:

[cmontheloknow]

Just some clarification on finances:

Junior Cup finalists now receive £12,000 each, with semi finalists getting £5000 each. No prize money for anyone else.

p21

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/Constitution&Rules/SJFA Constitution Rules 2017-18.pdf

'Senior' Scottish Cup finances (updated with 17-18 data):
For playing in:
PR1: £3000
PR2: £3000
R1: £4000
R2: £5000
R3: £6000
R4: £9000
R5: £12000
R6: £15000
SF: £18000
Runner Up: £30000
Winner: £60000

There was a fair play levy of about £250 for a red card and £150 per booking (can't recall exact numbers). (binned now)

If a (non-licensed) Junior side enters, they have to start from PR1, so if they win say 4 ties and get to R3, they will already have banked (gross) £21,000 before even playing their 3rd Round tie.

Edited March 28, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Deeside Dynamo]

1 minute ago, cmontheloknow said:

Just some clarification on finances:

Junior Cup finalists now receive £12,000 each, with semi finalists getting £5000 each. No prize money for anyone else.

p21

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/Constitution&Rules/SJFA Constitution Rules 2017-18.pdf

'Senior' Scottish Cup finances used to be (16-17 data):
For playing in:
PR1: £1000
PR2: £1000
R1: £2000
R2: £4000
R3: £6000
R4: £9000
R5: £12000
R6: £15000
SF: £18000
Runner Up: £30000
Winner: £60000

There was a fair play levy of about £250 for a red card and £150 per booking (can't recall exact numbers).

If a Junior side enters, they have to start from PR1, so it they win say 4 ties and get to R3, they will already have banked (gross) £14,000 before even playing their 3rd Round tie.

 

The "fair play" levy, or fine as it were, was scrapped a few years back.  I believe that clubs, rightly in my opinion, were aggrieved that the sponsors money meant for clubs was being kept by the SFA and not passed on.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Enigma said:

 

 

9 minutes ago, Enigma said:

The Junior Cup:

Good God, a Raith fan having the temerity to be condescending. 

Edited March 28, 2018 by Guest

[cmontheloknow]

1 minute ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

The "fair play" levy, or fine as it were, was scrapped a few years back.  I believe that clubs, rightly in my opinion, were aggrieved that the sponsors money meant for clubs was being kept by the SFA and not passed on.

cheers - I remember when Lok played St Cuthbert Wanderers and Montrose, our prize money was £6000 fpr playing in R1 and 2 (no preliminary back then) but we only banked about £5k after the fines!

[LongTimeLurker]

8 minutes ago, GLENAFTON93 said:

Yes it is,  ask Wishaw and the other three  semi-finalists if its a big deal.

Will over 10,000 be showing up at a ground like Brockville or Love Street? Most of us can remember when that was the norm for the semis. It's still a big deal, but it's not as big a deal as it used to be.

[cmontheloknow]

Unlike amateur clubs, Junior clubs are not funded by their players paying subs. Junior clubs are businesses (of varying sizes). The Junior Cup costs clubs money. Any clubs not worried about it costing them money either don't pay their players or have a backer to take the pain out of such things. I'd love to see Lok win it again but that doesn't change the fact it costs clubs money. Every round up to the semis comes with a split gate (and travel expenses guarantee to away team, no matter the size of crowd) and no prize money. Taking an average membership of 160, only 2.5% of the SJFA membership benefit from prize money.

[Kilbowie Benches]

If you are drawn away to  North Region clubs in the first couple of rounds it can be a costly competition!!

[cmontheloknow]

I do think there is a future for the Junior Cup though - as the national trophy for EVERY part-time teams outwith the national set-up. I think that would greatly enhance it - imagine actually having some competition from the North for it - trips up north that aren't a guaranteed easy win. Hermes and Banks o'Dee have a healthy recent record in the Junior Cup but they can only go so far.

[Deeside Dynamo]

8 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

cheers - I remember when Lok played St Cuthbert Wanderers and Montrose, our prize money was £6000 fpr playing in R1 and 2 (no preliminary back then) but we only banked about £5k after the fines!

To be honest sometimes the prize money doesn't go far. A few seasons ago St Cuthbert Wanderers were given drawn to play Keith in the preliminary round, Edinburgh Uni in the 1st round then Elgin City in the second round all away from home. By the time you've paid for transport and possibly an overnight stay there isn't much left in the kitty.

[BANKIEBILL]

1 hour ago, Isabel Goudie said:

If you are actually serious it does make sense, but due to respect for a an old, established and highly respected tournament the name should stay in tact as testimony to the heritage.

I think that is a sound idea

[kenny131]

3 minutes ago, Deeside Dynamo said:

To be honest sometimes the prize money doesn't go far. A few seasons ago St Cuthbert Wanderers were given drawn to play Keith in the preliminary round, Edinburgh Uni in the 1st round then Elgin City in the second round all away from home. By the time you've paid for transport and possibly an overnight stay there isn't much left in the kitty.

The fact there is a kitty is the difference you don't get 1 in the juniors cup

[Che Dail]

31 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Just some clarification on finances:

Junior Cup finalists now receive £12,000 each, with semi finalists getting £5000 each. No prize money for anyone else.

p21

http://www.scottishjuniorfa.com/resources/documents/SJFAFiles/DocumentsandDownloads/Constitution&Rules/SJFA Constitution Rules 2017-18.pdf

'Senior' Scottish Cup finances used to be (16-17 data):
For playing in:
PR1: £1000
PR2: £1000
R1: £2000
R2: £4000
R3: £6000
R4: £9000
R5: £12000
R6: £15000
SF: £18000
Runner Up: £30000
Winner: £60000

There was a fair play levy of about £250 for a red card and £150 per booking (can't recall exact numbers).

If a (non-licensed) Junior side enters, they have to start from PR1, so if they win say 4 ties and get to R3, they will already have banked (gross) £14,000 before even playing their 3rd Round tie.

 

This season the two prelim rounds were £3k each, and

R1-£4k

R2- £5k

R3-£6k

Edited March 28, 2018 by Che Dail

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, Kilbowie Benches said:

If you are drawn away to  North Region clubs in the first couple of rounds it can be a costly competition!!

It works the other way around too - a North side drawn at home to a team from the Central belt (that does not carry a crowd) will have a hard time raising the cash for the guarantee. I know the SJFA pay an additional 50% of the guarantees over £300 but the home team still have to find that money.

Just as an example: Maybole drawn away to Deveronside. Distance is 233 miles therefore guarantee is £310. Maybole would also get £155 from SJFA. Deveronside would be hoping for a gate of about 70-80 to cover the away side's costs and anything else they might make something, Is there still a SJFA levy on gates too?