Junior football, what is the future?

[cmontheloknow]

So those Mid Ulster Junior clubs seem to use facilities more akin to the amateurs - public parks, the occasional enclosed ground, school pitches etc..

[Salvo Montalbano]

£7.3 million of council funds could have been better used to tackle the austerity and associated problems in funding the health services etc etc in the region.
Coincidentally the fact that the leading politicians involved at the council at that time all had "Kelty connections" does not look good. Fact

You mean things like providing a massively increased community centre, a new library, new changing facilities for the council run astroturf pitch, an indoor sports hall and improved facilities for the primary school to use? That sort of thing? Yeah, that would be nice!

[Mr Prez]

2 hours ago, Glenconner said:

Kelty will be okay till the fat cat gets fed up and effs off to sunnier climbs. Then it becomes "whatever happened to that wee team from Fife, they were doing really well?".

Truth be told I went up and watch their game with Lthv it's a terrific venue there is a buzz about the place and a desire about the whole place with comunity backing it all 

Yes there has been investment but if they lose the first bit then that's when it would fall apart 

Don't see it happening though as the club seem to realise this a very bright future ahead for them

[tommyboy]

On 12/05/2018 at 08:43, Blackie Gold said:

Tommy spoke to the big man and he's extremely embarrassed by his behavior, he didn't even know he had been on P&B until a friend phoned him at his work. His wife says he should actually be clinically dead after what he drunk, but unfortunately he has vowed not to come back. 

Dimps' peccadillo was way down the offensive scale when compared with some of the dross that appears on this and other forums on a regular basis,so,rather than languishing in a home for the terminally embarrassed (definitely not the Towers ) he should be back here regaling the troops with his ready wit and Talbot Tales.

This forum needs a strong and reasonably sober Dimps, so get yerself back online,big chap. 

[shuggie123]

3 hours ago, Glenconner said:

Kelty will be okay till the fat cat gets fed up and effs off to sunnier climbs. Then it becomes "whatever happened to that wee team from Fife, they were doing really well?".

Worst spell of weather I've seen for a long time. 

[santheman]

7 hours ago, Glenconner said:

Is that the best you can come with?

 

Could be worse mate, you could live in Larkhall and be a Motherwell fan.

That really seems to get the seethe going on here.

[Ginaro]

Saw this posted on twitter: https://twitter.com/AlanDRobertson_/status/995441207881891840

 

[Guest]

I'm not really sure I have understood the article to be honest. What I take from this is that Kilwinnings Park and infrastructure needs investment, they have no money to do this and there is reference to previous trophies being bought, from a playing perspective. They currently sit 2nd of the super premier and it doesn't appear that the club apologise for putting all their money into a playing budget (a budget that probably sits close to the figure they claim it will take to get their stadium up to licensing level). 

Personally - if you want to be in the pyramid (the article implies they do and see benefit in it) then join, limit the playing budget and redirect that money to the infrastructure until you meet the criteria, then rebuild the playng squad.... Yes it means you won't win the league for a few years but you will then be able to rebuild on the playing front there after. 

The fixtures thing, sjfa being archaic and the general lack of direction, probably every person on this thread is in agreement about that right now. 

[cmontheloknow]

40 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I'm not really sure I have understood the article to be honest. What I take from this is that Kilwinnings Park and infrastructure needs investment, they have no money to do this and there is reference to previous trophies being bought, from a playing perspective. They currently sit 2nd of the super premier and it doesn't appear that the club apologise for putting all their money into a playing budget (a budget that probably sits close to the figure they claim it will take to get their stadium up to licensing level). 

Personally - if you want to be in the pyramid (the article implies they do and see benefit in it) then join, limit the playing budget and redirect that money to the infrastructure until you meet the criteria, then rebuild the playng squad.... Yes it means you won't win the league for a few years but you will then be able to rebuild on the playing front there after. 

The fixtures thing, sjfa being archaic and the general lack of direction, probably every person on this thread is in agreement about that right now. 

Ultimately that's the decision - save for a rainy day or have a night out on the tiles. To be competitive in the West Super Premier, to get the best players (or to keep them if you already have them), there's a going rate. It's going to be knocking on for six figures a year. Thing is, if gate money is a contributor towards it, you have to keep the punters coming in. They will do so in lesser numbers should budget cuts mean a relegation.

Edited May 13, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[Guest]

I agree with that summation, although I still say that if you build a house by putting the fancy, heavy roof up first with chopsticks underneath it will eventually collapse anyway. I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to win the league and put all your money into that then that's your call, but don't then come out and say that the club requires investment to get new changing rooms in or upgraded.... As a business, move the money and plan for the expected downturn in other ways..... If you are serious about a licence and moving senior, put in the groundwork now at the expense of the playing side and be honest and transparent with the fans, explaining the reasons for doing so. 

Edited May 13, 2018 by Guest

[FairWeatherFan]

2 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

I agree with that summation, although I still say that if you build a house by putting the fancy, heavy roof up first with chopsticks underneath it will eventually collapse anyway. I guess what I'm saying is that if you want to win the league and put all your money into that then that's your call, but don't then come out and say that the club requires investment to get new changing rooms in or upgraded.... As a business, move the money and plan for the expected downturn in other ways..... If you are serious about a licence and moving senior, put in the groundwork now at the expense of the playing side and be honest and transparent with the fans, explaining the reasons for doing so. 

They don't actually mention pumping money into the team ahead of the ground improvements. In fact they mention how they put in £16,000 in the last 18 months, need £30,000 for new changing rooms to meet licencing (being done through sponsored events to raise funds as they don't have a big investor).

It also mentions the estimated loss of £6,000 through hospitality & bar receipts due to the late arrangement of their last 2 home fixtures.

The bit about pumping money into the team was more historical relating to their success in 1999 and that they wouldn't give those memories back even though it might have been better spent on the infrastructure of the club back then.

[Guest]

I never said they had actually came out and said it, they implied through using historical reference points that they wouldn't apologise for putting money into the playing squad if success had been gained as a result. Now let's be clear, it would take at least a 25000 budget to even survive in the super Premier league (at the very least, probably a lot more in reality) - (25000 over a 40 week season by 18 players is just under 35 quid per week, per player) and it would take a hell of a lot more to win the super Premier (and yes not every player will be on the same wage, some on less than the average but lots on a lot more). I like that the club has spent money already, they are doing charity events which is great and they have been let down by the fixtures thing Aswell which has financial implications..... I do get it. 

But this all being said, if they need 30 grand to do the changing rooms up, cut the money spent on the park and utilise this to help make the upgrades - as a business surely that is a more prudent approach? 

[santheman]

6 grand In hospitality and bar takings for 2 games?

Must be able to hold their drink down in Kilwinning. 

[cmontheloknow]

Could be wrong but I'd say any team with a £25k wage budget in the West Super Premier would be relegated before a ball was kicked, this season apart

[GordonS]

23 hours ago, HTG said:

It's no really bud. We've already lost the last 2 winners of our league. We've lost a heap of Fife and Lothians teams. More are certain to go now in my view. 

My club has 2 weeks tops before passing a decision point of being tier 6 or tier 8.

Unless the sjfa wish to set out an alternative view of the PWG meeting. And if they do, they better get a move on. 

I don't see how either Linlithgow or Bo'ness can take that risk just to remain loyal to the SJFA.  If the SJFA can't deliver the east solution then we are fucked.

I'm sceptical about the pyramid and it's never appealed to me, but even I see it this way too. The risks of staying are now greater than the risks of going. There was a window to join Tier 5, which we didn't take, and I was happy about that. But now a whole load of clubs are leaving the ER and if we don't go we'll be left in an increasingly irrelevant, fossilised league while others grow and improve. We'll then be faced with a choice of joining at Tier 8 or becoming obsolete. For better or worse it's time to go.

21 hours ago, San Starko Rover said:

Might need a wee bit of work for a licence there but the view is nice, I assume Oban is far enough south for the Lowland boundary?

 

 

21 hours ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

There is the stadium at oban which would be decent enough. But yes its Argyll and Bute so not Highlands.

As I imagine you know, that's not how the line works - it's at 56.4513 degrees north - see page 226 of the SPFL rules: https://spfl.co.uk/docs/067_324__rulesofthespflasat19_january_2018_1518083042.pdf

Oban is just a couple of miles south of this, so makes it into the Lowland League territory. If they moved up to where Oban airport is they'd be in Highland League country.

9 hours ago, cmontheloknow said:

However distasteful it is to the Junior hardcore, it is the sensible approach to take - the SJFA cannot function in the pyramid at different levels, it would be a farce.

Why? Why couldn't the SJFA run tiers 6 and 7 in the north, tiers 7-9 in the west and tiers 8-10 in the east? Just because it's not neat and tidy? 

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, cmontheloknow said:

Could be wrong but I'd say any team with a £25k wage budget in the West Super Premier would be relegated before a ball was kicked, this season apart

I was trying to be as Conservative as possible :-) I would tend to agree..... 

[cmontheloknow]

12 minutes ago, GordonS said:

 

Why? Why couldn't the SJFA run tiers 6 and 7 in the north, tiers 7-9 in the west and tiers 8-10 in the east? Just because it's not neat and tidy? 

Pretty much yeah. Junior football's strength has always been its collectiveness and togetherness. The grade has been united since the 1930s. Right now the superleagues have equal status even though North is miles behind in terms of onfield standard and basic infrastructure (with Hermes and Banks o' Dee the only sides who can consistently perform reasonably in the Junior Cup). To follow your example, they wouldn't be on the same level under any definition.

Should the Junior superleagues still be able to provide a Scottish Cup route winners even though in some cases you're talking about them being well down the ladder? It is just messy IMO to go down that route. A tier 7 West side but a tier 8 East side? Why not the West's tier 8 side? If the EoS had not expanded, it may have been simpler - have one level of effectively 'intermediate' divisions below the LL and HL. Junior beneath that.

It will be interesting to see what is left of the SJFA if the WoSFL does form.

Edited May 13, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, G4Mac said:

I never said they had actually came out and said it, they implied through using historical reference points that they wouldn't apologise for putting money into the playing squad if success had been gained as a result. Now let's be clear, it would take at least a 25000 budget to even survive in the super Premier league (at the very least, probably a lot more in reality) - (25000 over a 40 week season by 18 players is just under 35 quid per week, per player) and it would take a hell of a lot more to win the super Premier (and yes not every player will be on the same wage, some on less than the average but lots on a lot more). I like that the club has spent money already, they are doing charity events which is great and they have been let down by the fixtures thing Aswell which has financial implications..... I do get it. 

But this all being said, if they need 30 grand to do the changing rooms up, cut the money spent on the park and utilise this to help make the upgrades - as a business surely that is a more prudent approach? 

Since a lot of this seems to be in mind for licencing there isn't much of a pressing rush to get it done now, but something to work towards.

Going to guess they also make most of their money from matchday revenues. You need a decent team on the field to attract fans, and encourage sponsors. Bit of a speculate to accumulate type of approach. Take £30,000 out of the budget and you might start flirting with relegation, which would lead to crowds going down and suddenly you've got even less to work with.

Whereas you do one off things like sponsored events & fundraising nights you get there in the end and without effecting the on the field side of things.

 

[Burnie_man]

29 minutes ago, GordonS said:

Why? Why couldn't the SJFA run tiers 6 and 7 in the north, tiers 7-9 in the west and tiers 8-10 in the east? Just because it's not neat and tidy? 

Why does the SJFA need to exist at all in that scenario? tiers 8-10 in the East would be run by the EoS, why wouldn't it be? same with the other Regions.

The SJFA will only continue to be relevant for as long as the Junior game exists as a seperate grade.

[parsforlife]

Having to fundraise 30k in one effort suggests not only are the club chucking too much money on players, they have done so for so long they are having to make up for decades of neglect.

 

Of course if you are in a league where everyone is striving to improve off-field you are far less worried about losing competitiveness when spending on facilities, junior clubs are now feeling to affects of their failure to introduce any form of meaningful ground regulation after accepting clubs as members, it's nuts that super league clubs with 6 figure playing budgets are being held to the same standard as amateur clubs.

 

As for his 'wouldn't change the memories for anything' I have no idea how he can think like that. I'd suggest he's not talked many fans of clubs who have gone close to/have gone bust, it's a fucking hellish time and the small benefits of overspending are nowhere near enough to make up for it. It's utterly bonkers thinking and to suggest it's ok would certainly see a 'bringing the game into disrepute' charge against you and your clubs financials gone over rigorously if the SFA were serious about financial responsibility.