Junior football, what is the future?

[Sunrise]

Just now, Sunrise said:

The amateurs seemingly manage OK - but think Campbeltown, once one of the biggest sides in the country, are finding it harder these days, plus getting men making the away trips.

Bit off topic but I wrote this absolutely thrilling piece aboot fitba in Campbeltoon in a recent Largs Thistle programme. There's a reason we're one o the best programmes in the country. 

Would be a guid day oot - its not necessarily the maist exciting place, but I love the remoteness of the Mull of Kintyre.

"A BRIEF HISTORY
OF FOOTBALL IN KINTYRE

REGULAR READERS will recall me writing about Dunoon’s junior heritage, when I visited Cowal after getting my first car. 
Last summer I travelled to Oban and Campbeltown, the latter which left me with a burst tyre and an overnight stay! Both towns have a vein of footballing success spanning decades; the former’s team, Oban Saints, have reached the Scottish Amateur Cup semi-finals two years running and are in next week’s quarter-final, but I feel, for this programme, Campbeltown and Kintyre have a story worth telling…
The Kintyre peninsula’s footballers have perhaps benefited from their geographic isolation. The top club of the early 20th century, Academicals, withdrew from the local juniors in 1913 after being barred from the Junior Cup for travelling reasons – to instead host Rangers, Morton, Hamilton Accies and other big names in friendlies!
Academicals midfielder Neil McBain would later play for Manchester United, making three appearances for Scotland and being the oldest player ever to feature in the Football League, aged 51 years and 120 days for New Brighton against Hartlepools in 1947.
Kintyre sides such as Campbeltown United, Academicals and Argyll Colliery dominated the Mid-Argyll league of the 20s. United hosted Tranent – previous winners – in the Junior Cup fifth round of 1935, rejecting a request to play closer to the central belt. Their record run ended there, but Tranent beat Petershill in the final that May.
Kintyre retained a junior presence after the Second World War. In those days, Kintyre teams were seeded to face each other in the early sounds of the cup, before facing the rest of Scotland as late as the fourth round. Contrary to popular belief, Ardrossan Winton Rovers did not fly to face Drumlemble on November 5th 1960.
Four seasons earlier however, Aberdeen Mugiemoss did charter a flight to Kintyre’s Machrihanish Airport for their visit to United on 5th January 1957, in the Scottish Junior Cup fourth round. After a score draw, the replay to Aberdeen resembled a scene from Robin Jenkins’ classic football novel The Thistle and The Grail: with few fans travelling north, a phone link was set up between Linksfield Stadium and United’s local Kinloch Bar – which happened to be closed between 2-5pm. The fervent fans instead loitered around the streets with a runner relaying updates – which were also chalked into the road surface! 
United battled for a 3-2 win to reach the fifth round, the first time for a local side since 1938. Loanhead Mayflower ended the run, in front of a record 3,500 at Kintyre Park. 
But local football was on its last legs, with the local league declining from six members in 1953 to four in 1957. Kintyre’s last hurrah was the Junior Cup first round of 1961/62, as Campbeltown Hearts lost 0-11 at home to Dundee St Josephs, while Drumlemble were beaten 1-5 at Linlithgow. That October 14th, the local league closed down.
The Kintyre Amateur Football League amateur league continued as once-junior side Campbeltown Pupils reformed, winning the league and cup in their first season back. The industry that defined the area changed: Argyll Colliery closed in 1967, though a NATO fuel depot and the opening of RAF Machrihanish reshaped the local economy. The base itself produced a side to challenge Pupils’ dominance, though before long Pupils first transferred to the Mid-Argyll League in 1971, and then the Scottish Amateur Football League in 1977/78 – winning the Seventh Division undefeated with 122 goals scored in their first attempt. It would be the beginning of a golden era for Kintyre football.
At their peak during the late 70s and early 80s, Pupils had 400 season ticket holders – as an amateur side! – and attracted crowds as big as 700 to Kintyre Park. Their record Scottish Amateur Cup run came in 1980, where they beat Fenwick Thistle and Arden Villa on the way to the quarter-finals before losing at eventual winners Newarthill Hearts, while local rivals Carradale and Tarbert – not to mention Oban Saints – also competed in Scotland’s most prestigious amateur league.
1200 fans came to Kintyre Park in August 1983 to witness Pupils lose 1-3 to a Celtic XI featuring David Moyes, Peter Grant, Owen Archdeacon and Bobby Lennox. That year, Pupils were joined in the SAFL by Campbeltown Boys. Boys’ greatest achievement was winning the Premier Division Two in 1996, before Boys and Pupils merged during 2010/11.
In 1988, Kevin Gilchrist became the first local player to be capped for Scotland’s amateurs since pre-WWI. Three seasons later, Pupils were inaugural members of the SAFL Premier, admitted due to their Kintyre Park facilities; they would later be joined at the top table by Argyll foes Oban Saints. Pupils won the SAFL’s top tier in 2000: the triumphant side opened that season with a friendly against Kenny Shiels’ Coleraine, drawing 3-3 and prompting the Irish side to comment “Pupils have several very good players who would do well in Irish senior football”.
Despite local success down the years, like many amateurs Pupils now battle to keep young men interested in football. Just a few weeks ago, they returned home from East Kilbride’s Claremont after a 0-5 defeat, having signed five names on the day: their Twitter bemoaned uncommitted players. Where once there were ten Argyle teams in the SAFL (and twelve leagues), there are now six sides and just THREE leagues, though Carradale ply their trade in the Greater Glasgow League. The Kintyre league ceased in 1998.
But young players can give the peninsula hope. Pupils’ 2005s currently sit top of the Dunbartonshire YDL with three games left. Perhaps with the growing pyramid system, an ambitious young Kintyre side could compete at an even higher level – and give us new trips, preferably burst tyres not included!

This article was written thanks to the following: “Scottish Junior Cup 1960-1968 and 1950-1960”, both by Stewart Davidson, "Kit and Caboodle: A History of Football in Campbeltown” by Alex McKinven, and the National Library of Scotland’s archives of the Campbeltown Courier and Ardrossan & Saltcoats Herald.

 

"

[12 Angry Men]

If the PWG discussions at the end of the week were, in any way, similar to what is being suggested - and the reasoned and intelligent rationale of many on here who predicted just such an outcome seemed compellingly obvious to me - then if I were a supporter of ANY team in the East with even a modicum of ambition to move but who haven’t already committed to doing so then I’d be worried.

If I were a committee man or member of any such team then I’d be worried too but I’d be looking to have my club contact the games authorities ASAP for confirmation and then, if confirmation comes, I’d be arguing in as strong a nature as possible that my club gets in gear and does whatever is required to get a late application to the EoSFL in.

It seems abundantly clear to me that through a lack of clear foresight Linlithgow and Bo’ness, the biggest amongst many others, are going to be left standing when Scottish football takes its next step forward this close season.

This.

As the weeks have moved on and more teams were rumoured to be moving, most all of whom were then confirmed as accepted applicants by the EoSFL, I perhaps unrealistically and, as it turns out, naively assumed that Linlithgow Rose and Bo’ness United committees would see and understand the inevitable and would take the logical step of calling members meetings, if and where required, with leadership recommendations of moving to the EoSFL and the Pyramid. I’m simply astounded that this hasn’t happened, although I probably shouldn’t be if some of the inarticulate and petty Pyramid negativity that abounds on here is in any way representative of some committees.

Perhaps it’s not too late, but I fear that for these two great clubs it just might be - for this coming season at any rate. Tier 6 being open to them thereafter should the inevitable consequences dawn is far from a given.

[Auld Heid]

It's no really bud. We've already lost the last 2 winners of our league. We've lost a heap of Fife and Lothians teams. More are certain to go now in my view. 
My club has 2 weeks tops before passing a decision point of being tier 6 or tier 8.
Unless the sjfa wish to set out an alternative view of the PWG meeting. And if they do, they better get a move on. 
I don't see how either Linlithgow or Bo'ness can take that risk just to remain loyal to the SJFA.  If the SJFA can't deliver the east solution then we are fucked.

In which case we are fecked.

We are probably the most prepared club in Scotland to participate in a pyramid system. Yet the furthest away from committing.

[th1stleandr0se]

Is it possible for someone to write a potted summary of this pyramid situation as I, and I'm sure others, find it difficult to follow and 366 pages takes a lot of reading? I don't mean opinions, just the situation as it stands factually.

Then back to conjecture, is it likely that a new WoS league would be formed from the West Juniors superleague and placed at level 6 and be part of a play-off situation for the Lowland League but if the East Juniors were to join the pyramid en-masse they would most likely start as a feeder to the EoS league at level 7 (assuming the EoS has reached capacity)? If this was to be the situation, could Linlithgow, for example, ask to join the WoS to be a level higher? Berwick play in the Scottish League and Cardiff in the English after all.

[Ginaro]

35 minutes ago, Black & Red Socks said:

If I were a committee man or member of any such team then I’d be worried too but I’d be looking to have my club contact the games authorities ASAP for confirmation and then, if confirmation comes, I’d be arguing in as strong a nature as possible that my club gets in gear and does whatever is required to get a late application to the EoSFL in.

It seems abundantly clear to me that through a lack of clear foresight Linlithgow and Bo’ness, the biggest amongst many others, are going to be left standing when Scottish football takes its next step forward this close season.

One Rose say they want to get to the SPFL play-offs in three years, and are taking steps to get there by leaving the Juniors to get an SFA Licence: https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/bonnyrigg-rose-boss-david-white-12520461

The other Rose say they have ambitions of playing in the SPFL but aren't doing anything to get there despite already having a licence. Any Linlithgow fan on here should be getting in contact with the chairman and asking what the club is actually doing to fulfil those supposed ambitions.

Edited May 12, 2018 by Ginaro

[Sheep77]

What’s the benefits for junior clubs to go ? 

Am struggling to see the benefits camelon   

HOB  and other junior teams have got to offer  

[Glenconner]

4 minutes ago, th1stleandr0se said:

Is it possible for someone to write a potted summary of this pyramid situation as I, and I'm sure others, find it difficult to follow and 366 pages takes a lot of reading? I don't mean opinions, just the situation as it stands factually.

Then back to conjecture, is it likely that a new WoS league would be formed from the West Juniors superleague and placed at level 6 and be part of a play-off situation for the Lowland League but if the East Juniors were to join the pyramid en-masse they would most likely start as a feeder to the EoS league at level 7 (assuming the EoS has reached capacity)? If this was to be the situation, could Linlithgow, for example, ask to join the WoS to be a level higher? Berwick play in the Scottish League and Cardiff in the English after all.

In a nutshell, a sizable number of Junior clubs would like access to the big Scottish Cup and the few quid that goes with it. Very few outside of one or two really want to play Annan or Elgin away on a Tuesday night in December. The sniders at the SFA changed the rules and now want everybody to join a kiddie on pyramid system.

[Ali_Wee_Jag]

Rumour has it that there was one late application, not considered at the EoS EGM. Does anyone know who it was/is - guesses include Bo'ness ? Dunbar ?

Not Dunbar Utd. No intention of going EoS. I’ve said this before.

[Auld Heid]

Is it possible for someone to write a potted summary of this pyramid situation as I, and I'm sure others, find it difficult to follow and 366 pages takes a lot of reading? I don't mean opinions, just the situation as it stands factually.
Then back to conjecture, is it likely that a new WoS league would be formed from the West Juniors superleague and placed at level 6 and be part of a play-off situation for the Lowland League but if the East Juniors were to join the pyramid en-masse they would most likely start as a feeder to the EoS league at level 7 (assuming the EoS has reached capacity)? If this was to be the situation, could Linlithgow, for example, ask to join the WoS to be a level higher? Berwick play in the Scottish League and Cardiff in the English after all.

In simple terms our committee are Turkeys and voted for Xmas.

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Yeh, automatic relegation is a certainty, think when the wosl is implemented then it’ll happen.
Incidentally would be good to see Oban Saints and Fort William apply for the WOSL.

Glencruitten, usual home of Saints, last weekend. Always love  dropping into a game there.

[cmontheloknow]

1 hour ago, Glenconner said:

Oban in 16 team league with 15 bus hires to the Glasgow area and Ayrshire. Let's call it £500 a pop for a team bus. £7500 before they kick a ball?

They do it every 2nd week as it is.

[drs]

25 minutes ago, Sheep77 said:

What’s the benefits for junior clubs to go ? 

Am struggling to see the benefits camelon   

HOB  and other junior teams have got to offer  

Already been listed on this thread numerous time,

full season fixture lists, community involvement, ground improvements, entry to the pyramid, club licencing, opportunity to enter Scottish Cup, youth development.

Long term its a no brainer compared to staying put.

[cmontheloknow]

11 hours ago, Sheep77 said:

What’s the benefits for junior clubs to go ? 

Am struggling to see the benefits camelon   

HOB  and other junior teams have got to offer  

Away from the obvious ones like ability to obtain club license and thus Scottish Cup participation every year (which unfortunately carries a prize money penalty tsk tsk), they have access to the senior U20 set-up which is good for clubs that have an interest beyond the 1st XI. Access to funding opportunities to improve facilities. The better sides may also work their way upwards. Again that unfortunately carries a penalty - Cowdenbeath got over £40,000 this year. I believe they're giving it all to a local charity.

Edited May 13, 2018 by cmontheloknow

[San Starko Rover]

Glencruitten, usual home of Saints, last weekend. Always love  dropping into a game there.

Might need a wee bit of work for a licence there but the view is nice, I assume Oban is far enough south for the Lowland boundary?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Might need a wee bit of work for a licence there but the view is nice, I assume Oban is far enough south for the Lowland boundary?

There is the stadium at oban which would be decent enough. But yes its Argyll and Bute so not Highlands.

[drs]

42 minutes ago, th1stleandr0se said:

Is it possible for someone to write a potted summary of this pyramid situation as I, and I'm sure others, find it difficult to follow and 366 pages takes a lot of reading? I don't mean opinions, just the situation as it stands factually.

East has Nazis

West has drunks

No one cares about the North.

[cmontheloknow]

Just now, San Starko Rover said:

 

Might need a wee bit of work for a licence there but the view is nice, I assume Oban is far enough south for the Lowland boundary?

They're a few miles south of the Tay so in LL territory.

Glencruitten would need a ton of work - cover, changing rooms even... it is basically enclosed though. They'd have more luck upgrading Mossfield Park (shinty) or doing a deal with Oban Lorne (rugby), as both have changing room facilities.

[Sheep77]

But the loss off money from Bo’ness and Linlithgow is concern for those clubs jumping ship  

[Aubrey Maturin]

1 minute ago, drs said:

East has Nazis

West has drunks

No one cares about the North.

It's like a poor mans game of thrones.

[San Starko Rover]

They're a few miles south of the Tay so in LL territory.
Glencruitten would need a ton of work - cover, changing rooms even... it is basically enclosed though. They'd have more luck upgrading Mossfield Park (shinty) or doing a deal with Oban Lorne (rugby), as both have changing room facilities.

Couple of nice grounds, shinty pitch looks pretty decent. Never actually been to Oban but heard it’s really nice so might have to go sometime. If there is a WoS league be nice to see Oban as they’re a bit of an outlier.