Junior football, what is the future?

[Blackie Gold]

6 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

Think we can all agree on that - but will the minority of clubs who want to remain Junior still be happy when the majority of clubs have moved to the pyramid and left them behind?

It really depends who's left in the Juniors. As already highlighted by our secretary Talbot want to stay Junior. Its not all this pish about big fish in small pond its about finance because he is privvy to our expenditure and keeping Talbot as one of the big clubs is hard enough without moving to a grade that might not attract interest from our support and of course diminished gates.  A club that has a population of just over 3,000 will bring nothing the the table.

[Ginaro]

31 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

It really depends who's left in the Juniors. As already highlighted by our secretary Talbot want to stay Junior. Its not all this pish about big fish in small pond its about finance because he is privvy to our expenditure and keeping Talbot as one of the big clubs is hard enough without moving to a grade that might not attract interest from our support and of course diminished gates.  A club that has a population of just over 3,000 will bring nothing the the table.

If we go by the survey, only the following 12 clubs from the top two divisions in the west said no:

Auchinleck Talbot
Glenafton Athletic
Kirkintilloch Rob Roy
Cumnock Juniors
^{(Girvan not listed on survey results but assuming they said yes as SFA members)}
Petershill
Renfrew
Cambuslang Rangers
Rutherglen Glencairn
Irvine Meadow
Cumbernauld United
Darvel
Kilsyth Rangers

So do you think that league above would attract more or less interest than if you joined the other clubs who said yes to the pyramid?

[Blackie Gold]

2 minutes ago, Ginaro said:

If we go by the survey, only the following 12 clubs from the top two divisions in the west said no:

Auchinleck Talbot
Glenafton Athletic
Kirkintilloch Rob Roy
Cumnock Juniors
^{(Girvan not listed on survey results but assuming they said yes as SFA members)}
Petershill
Renfrew
Cambuslang Rangers
Rutherglen Glencairn
Irvine Meadow
Cumbernauld United
Darvel
Kilsyth Rangers

So do you think that league above would attract more or less interest than if you joined the other clubs who said yes to the pyramid?

Some decent clubs in among that lot. It wouldn't be a bad wee league. Also it was only a survey I think if other West clubs saw who wanted to stay then the amount might double. In reality the vast majority of the clubs who said yes and moved to the pyramid would just be punching at the same weight but under a different grade.

[Kilbowie Benches]

1 minute ago, Blackie Gold said:

Some decent clubs in among that lot. It wouldn't be a bad wee league. Also it was only a survey I think if other West clubs saw who wanted to stay then the amount might double. In reality the vast majority of the clubs who said yes and moved to the pyramid would just be punching at the same weight but under a different grade.

But with at least the chance to progress!

[Blackie Gold]

Just now, Kilbowie Benches said:

But with at least the chance to progress!

Look M8 your club doesn't hide the fact that they want to get back to the senior grade and fair do's to them, but progression is not everything. Because what your club wants doesn't mean my club wants the same. Auchinleck Talbot don't want to progress to senior football but it's highly likely we will be forced to so as to survive. The thing is do you want Auchinleck Talbot in your pyramid league because its highly likely they will put a halt to you meteoric rise the the SPFL.

[Kilbowie Benches]

9 minutes ago, Blackie Gold said:

Look M8 your club doesn't hide the fact that they want to get back to the senior grade and fair do's to them, but progression is not everything. Because what your club wants doesn't mean my club wants the same. Auchinleck Talbot don't want to progress to senior football but it's highly likely we will be forced to so as to survive. The thing is do you want Auchinleck Talbot in your pyramid league because its highly likely they will put a halt to you meteoric rise the the SPFL.

Nobody will be forced to do anything.

Just you stay where you are,everything will be fine.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Look M8 your club doesn't hide the fact that they want to get back to the senior grade and fair do's to them, but progression is not everything. Because what your club wants doesn't mean my club wants the same. Auchinleck Talbot don't want to progress to senior football but it's highly likely we will be forced to so as to survive. The thing is do you want Auchinleck Talbot in your pyramid league because its highly likely they will put a halt to you meteoric rise the the SPFL.

I wouldnt particularly like Talbot in a senior league largely because its somewhere i dont really like visiting, id actually rather a midweek game in Elgin.

[Barrofields]

With Inverkeithing applying for EoS are there other ammies that could make the step up to juniors or seniors?

 

I reckon Crosshouse - good wee team and brought more supporters to Largs than half the junior clubs that have been here this year

[Baxter's Nutmeg]

3 hours ago, Burnie_man said:

Well it be there for 2019/20 I expect, maybe even next season.

I think that is the earliest it could start, there is no chance of next season mate.

[FairWeatherFan]

53 minutes ago, Barrofields said:

With Inverkeithing applying for EoS are there other ammies that could make the step up to juniors or seniors?

 

I reckon Crosshouse - good wee team and brought more supporters to Largs than half the junior clubs that have been here this year

St. Bernard's & Musselburgh Windsor were linked with EoS applications this year. Kelso United & Duns also get brought up in discussion about making a return from the amateurs.

[LongTimeLurker]

The need for an enclosed ground is usually what makes it difficult to do. Think in the west Lochwinnoch has an amateur team that would be well suited that way, but most small towns and villages that have no junior team just have open public parks for their amateur clubs.

[FairWeatherFan]

1 hour ago, Blackie Gold said:

Some decent clubs in among that lot. It wouldn't be a bad wee league. Also it was only a survey I think if other West clubs saw who wanted to stay then the amount might double. In reality the vast majority of the clubs who said yes and moved to the pyramid would just be punching at the same weight but under a different grade.

If those clubs all stuck with the SJFA i'm sure there would be others that had said yes in the survey that would rather stick with them. Playing in that league and not having to worry about potential costs of licencing would probably be more attractive.

When the WoS gets formed i'm sure there will be plenty of takers, but the West Region will probably fall into line with what the East Region is going to look like next year. A Superleague on top with District Leagues below, at the very least.

[Guest]

Potential costs of licensing are not that great to be honest..... In fact for the entry level licence most of the top junior sides would already meet the requirement in their current grounds with a few thousand quid spent on changing layouts or upgrading certain aspects of the infrastructure..... What clubs really don't want to do for some reason is to have to displace money from current on field success to meet licensing standards...... And to be fair if they have no enthusiasm for it they should not be forced to move.

If all those clubs wants to stay and play each other that's perfectly alright, but you can't decry anyone who chose to move, even those who will probably operate at the same level as they would have in the Juniors but have some desire and commitment to at least trying to move their club up through the pyramid. For some clubs, like Kelty, this may be quicker than for a Crossgates or a Blackburn, but I for one have no issue with the clubs at least trying to do something different and progress themselves through the Senior pyramid, or do we just wish for everyone to know their place and stagnate because no one likes changing from the way it has been for decades........ In history if that had been the ethos we would still unfortunately be sitting in caves painting the walls with our hands...... 

Edited May 12, 2018 by Guest

[Born To Run]

19 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Potential costs of licensing are not that great to be honest..... In fact for the entry level licence most of the top junior sides would already meet the requirement in their current grounds with a few thousand quid spent on changing layouts or upgrading certain aspects of the infrastructure..... What clubs really don't want to do for some reason is to have to displace money from current on field success to meet licensing standards...... And to be fair if they have no enthusiasm for it they should not be forced to move.

They don't have to worry about this. Every club in the pyramid can apply for a grant circa £10k per year to spend on stadium & facility improvements.

[FairWeatherFan]

26 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Potential costs of licensing are not that great to be honest..... In fact for the entry level licence most of the top junior sides would already meet the requirement in their current grounds with a few thousand quid spent on changing layouts or upgrading certain aspects of the infrastructure..... What clubs really don't want to do for some reason is to have to displace money from current on field success to meet licensing standards...... And to be fair if they have no enthusiasm for it they should not be forced to move.

If all those clubs wants to stay and play each other that's perfectly alright, but you can't decry anyone who chose to move, even those who will probably operate at the same level as they would have in the Juniors but have some desire and commitment to at least trying to move their club up through the pyramid. For some clubs, like Kelty, this may be quicker than for a Crossgates or a Blackburn, but I for one have no issue with the clubs at least trying to do something different and progress themselves through the Senior pyramid, or do we just wish for everyone to know their place and stagnate because no one likes changing from the way it has been for decades........ In history if that had been the ethos we would still unfortunately be sitting in caves painting the walls with our hands...... 

I think there is meant to be some financial disclosure, it's not quite FFP but there's something to it. Opening up their books might put some people off.

[Guest]

Applying for a grant, if you have ever tried to do so, and gaining one are two very different things though.... Not enough money for everyone to get a grant.... I do get what you are saying but it still doesn't solve the major issue of accepting 2nd best on the park (short term) to build the correct infrastructure (long term) which means having lots of teams and a development pathway at your club .... And a licence so that players in your first team have came all the way from age 5 at your club...... To do that you can't pay 10 players 100+quid a week and another 8 50+quid a week.... Well unless you have the junior equivalent of abramovich

[Enigma]

Big barrier seems to be HL requires floodlights but LL doesn’t. I’m sure they have their reasons but surely this has to change if we are to see any progress in teams wanting to join the HL or a feeder below it.

[Jacksgranda]

52 minutes ago, G4Mac said:

Applying for a grant, if you have ever tried to do so, and gaining one are two very different things though.... Not enough money for everyone to get a grant.... I do get what you are saying but it still doesn't solve the major issue of accepting 2nd best on the park (short term) to build the correct infrastructure (long term) which means having lots of teams and a development pathway at your club .... And a licence so that players in your first team have came all the way from age 5 at your club...... To do that you can't pay 10 players 100+quid a week and another 8 50+quid a week.... Well unless you have the junior equivalent of abramovich

Applying is the hard part, filling out the forms is horrendous. (Not talking about football grants in particular.)

[Burnie_man]

2 hours ago, G4Mac said:

Applying for a grant, if you have ever tried to do so, and gaining one are two very different things though.... Not enough money for everyone to get a grant.... I do get what you are saying but it still doesn't solve the major issue of accepting 2nd best on the park (short term) to build the correct infrastructure (long term) which means having lots of teams and a development pathway at your club .... And a licence so that players in your first team have came all the way from age 5 at your club...... To do that you can't pay 10 players 100+quid a week and another 8 50+quid a week.... Well unless you have the junior equivalent of abramovich

An Entry Licence doesn't require a youth set-up or player pathway.  It does require some basic infrastructure to be put in place though, cover, disabled cover, male/female/disabled toilets,  changing room for 22 and stuff like that. Plus obviously plans for H&S, Emergencies, Safety Officer etc, a lot of it just basic stuff that clubs should be doing already especially if you attract a decent sized crowd.

[Truthteller]

13 hours ago, Rooster20 said:

Craigroyston have formally submitted an application and the Dunbar board have made enquiries but not applied yet. I have no further knowledge of any other teams but I would imagine that a few more may apply in the coming weeks.

I would be very surprised if Dunbar do not submit a late application given the fact that the majority of the teams geographically surrounding them are moving to the EOS.

As things stand it would leave them without an East Lothian derby game and their only possible "local"  opposition to be Penicuik, Arniston and Newtongrange.

Plus they would still have numerous trips to Perth and Tayside so I would expect a late application in the post.