Scott McTominay

[Ewanandmoreagain]

23 minutes ago, Donathan said:

Ok I’ll bite.

 

What player(s) is Clarke being overly loyal to that deserve to be dropped? 

Must be Non first choices

[Gordopolis]

10 hours ago, deadasdillinger said:

I managed to get this on. It didn't work doing it as a Bet Builder, but adding them to bet slip separately and putting on as a Double is returning over a grand for a fiver atm! Must be a glitch

Dumb question, but how do you place a double on there? I keep selecting both parts of the bet and they show up as singles on my slip

[thruthenight]

3 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Dumb question, but how do you place a double on there? I keep selecting both parts of the bet and they show up as singles on my slip

They might have fixed it then, last night that's all you had to do

[Gordopolis]

Just now, thruthenight said:

They might have fixed it then, last night that's all you had to do

Ah right, thanks!

[ArabFC]

1 hour ago, The Algebraist said:

The thing that always confuses me about Southgate's England is that they have some of the most talented young forwards and midfielders in the world who are all smashing it at club level playing in high press systems, however for some reason they choose to sit off instead. 

Apparently Southgate said very recently that Phil Foden couldn't play in midfield for England because he'd need to work on the defensive side of his game.

I'm not telling him how to do his job but a Foden/Bellingham double8 pairing with a protector like Rice behind them is a worryingly good prospect.

Then they've got talent like Rashford, Saka, Grealish and Sterling fighting for the wide roles with Kane through the middle... but somehow they keep playing folk like Henderson or Phillips. Baffling.

Edited September 12, 2023 by ArabFC

[Donathan]

I actually think England should play Alexander-Arnold in midfield. Not tonight of course because he’s injured but that’s the role he should play at the Euros. Liverpool have him inverting from right back into midfield but are consistently getting caught on the break down the left hand side, so giving him the freedom to just play in midfield would benefit the creative side of their game without leaving them exposed at the back.

 

They should also recall Ben White at right back and Luke Shaw (when fit) at left back to have club pairings on both the wings. That would mean you’ve got players who are used to each others game playing as pairs.

 

Finally, Pickford needs dropped in favour of Aaron Ramsdale who’s a much better keeper.

 

Ramsdale

White-Walker-Stones-Shaw

TAA-Rice-Bellingham

Saka-Kane-Rashford

 

Unfortunately I think that XI would win the euros pretty handily. 

[2426255]

Interesting to get a snapshot of how both squads have evolved since the last time we played. It's a comparison of the 23 man squads that were selected in the Euro 2020 game in June 2021 versus the 24 man squads for today's game.

• Scotland have retained 14 players selected for the game at the Euros while England have retained 13.
• 8 new players have come into the squad for Scotland compared to England's 9.
• 6 players miss out from Scotland, 5 from England.

I also included the players who missed out on either game because of injury as they would have likely been involved in both games and could probably all be considered core. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by 2426255

[Donathan]

7 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

Interesting to get a snapshot of how both squads have evolved since the last time we played. It's a comparison of the 23 man squads that were selected in the Euro 2020 game in June 2021 versus the 24 man squads for today's game.

• Scotland have retained 14 players selected for the game at the Euros while England have retained 13.
• 8 new players have come into the squad for Scotland compared to England's 9.
• 6 players miss out from both nations from last time.

I also included the players who missed out on either game because of injury as they would have likely been involved in both games. 

McLean and Jack are in our squad and Walker is in the England squad. Also Mount is injured I believe and Callum Wilson left out rather than injured. 

[2426255]

1 minute ago, Donathan said:

McLean and Jack are in our squad and Walker is in the England squad. Also Mount is injured I believe and Callum Wilson left out rather than injured. 

McLean, Jack, Walker and Wilson were injured for the Euro 2020 game. You're correct about Mount so thanks for that. 

Edited September 12, 2023 by 2426255

[Donathan]

Just now, 2426255 said:

McLean, Jack, Walker and Wilson were injured for the Euro 2020 game 

I may have misunderstood your grid. Is that a list of players who were injured for either game?

 

[2426255]

Just now, Donathan said:

I may have misunderstood your grid. Is that a list of players who were injured for either game?

 

 

10 minutes ago, 2426255 said:

I also included the players who missed out on either game because of injury as they would have likely been involved in both games and could probably all be considered core. 

 

[The Moonster]

1 hour ago, 2426255 said:

You've misinterpreted my observation, I'll try to clarify it.

With respect to squad selections, the decision making and squad building methodology around Scotland and England is fairly similar and no doubt quite similar across the span of International teams. Steve Clarke is praised for supporting his players through dips and his loyalty is seen largely as a positive and rightly so imo, but Southgate is criticised for a similar approach which I think is unfair. 

I think it is fair criticism tbh. Clarke spoke in his interview you kindly linked to yesterday that he feels he picked the correct players to be loyal with and that's justified with the number of caps those players now have and success we've had along with it. Southgate is being loyal to players but is struggling to take England to the next level. He has them doing what they always do - take care of qualifying with no problems but falling when they meet a big dog in latter stages of tournaments. The approaches may be similar but one is yielding relative success and one isn't, so I think it's fair to question whether Southgate was firstly correct to follow that approach and secondly to continue with it.

[sparky88]

59 minutes ago, ArabFC said:

Apparently Southgate said very recently that Phil Foden couldn't play in midfield for England because he'd need to work on the defensive side of his game.

I'm not telling him how to do his job but a Foden/Bellingham double8 pairing with a protector like Rice behind them is a worryingly good prospect.

Then they've got talent like Rashford, Saka, Grealish and Sterling fighting for the wide roles with Kane through the middle... but somehow they keep playing folk like Henderson or Phillips. Baffling.

I think it comes down to him not trusting his central defenders especially Maguire.

Man Utd were in same situation prior to them bringing in Casemiro- also as a result of not trusting Maguire.

 

[ArabFC]

1 hour ago, Donathan said:

I actually think England should play Alexander-Arnold in midfield. Not tonight of course because he’s injured but that’s the role he should play at the Euros. Liverpool have him inverting from right back into midfield but are consistently getting caught on the break down the left hand side, so giving him the freedom to just play in midfield would benefit the creative side of their game without leaving them exposed at the back.

I watch Liverpool a lot (basically because of Robbo) but the problem is TAA isn't actually a very good midfielder.

He's great on the ball - obvz - but the basics, such as receiving the ball with your back to the oppo etc, not so much.

Liverpool seemed to adapt his role in their last game so that he basically played as a libero when they had the ball.

[HuttonDressedAsLahm]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

I think it is fair criticism tbh. Clarke spoke in his interview you kindly linked to yesterday that he feels he picked the correct players to be loyal with and that's justified with the number of caps those players now have and success we've had along with it. Southgate is being loyal to players but is struggling to take England to the next level. He has them doing what they always do - take care of qualifying with no problems but falling when they meet a big dog in latter stages of tournaments. The approaches may be similar but one is yielding relative success and one isn't, so I think it's fair to question whether Southgate was firstly correct to follow that approach and secondly to continue with it.

Agreed. SAF is one of the best examples of a manager who used some unfashionable players and was very loyal, until he wasn’t anymore. 

It’s a great strength, until it isn’t. In the same way that some players hold on too long, too many managers do it as well. Southgate hasn’t transitioned Henderson/Phillips and his centre halves, either for replacement or for cover. 

Brown did it, and so did Strachan. To some extent, international managers are a hostage to fortune, but some are better than others.

SC has done a decent job of moving players on. He might end up too loyal, but it’s unlikely to be a problem for a few years. I also see him as an excellent man-manager who can cope well with those aspects. 

Edit: I could be clearer. SAF was excellent at moving players on at the right time. Strachan and Brown left the next manager in the lurch.

Edited September 12, 2023 by HuttonDressedAsLahm

[The Algebraist]

2 hours ago, ArabFC said:

Apparently Southgate said very recently that Phil Foden couldn't play in midfield for England because he'd need to work on the defensive side of his game.

I'm not telling him how to do his job but a Foden/Bellingham double8 pairing with a protector like Rice behind them is a worryingly good prospect.

That's just daft. It's his defense that doesn't work.

 

26 minutes ago, HuttonDressedAsLahm said:

Agreed. SAF is one of the best examples of a manager who used some unfashionable players and was very loyal, until he wasn’t anymore. 

It’s a great strength, until it isn’t. In the same way that some players hold on too long, too many managers do it as well. Southgate hasn’t transitioned Henderson/Phillips and his centre halves, either for replacement or for cover. 

Brown did it, and so did Strachan. To some extent, international managers are a hostage to fortune, but some are better than others.

SC has done a decent job of moving players on. He might end up too loyal, but it’s unlikely to be a problem for a few years. I also see him as an excellent man-manager who can cope well with those aspects. 

Edit: I could be clearer. SAF was excellent at moving players on at the right time. Strachan and Brown left the next manager in the lurch.

Every time I think SC is being too loyal to a player they seem to prove me wrong. 

McClean is the biggest example, I have several times wondered why he is still around and now he is responsible for three of my best memories watching Scotland. 

Ahead of tonight I want it put on record that both McSauce and McGinn are past it. Robbo too why not. And Billy G, it's time he was flipping burgers and there is no way he is ever scoring a senior goal against England at Hampden.

Edited September 12, 2023 by The Algebraist

[VincentGuerin]

All things in fitba are judged on results.

If we don't score two goals at the death in Norway, then SC is being too loyal to players who are past it. But we did, so he was 'right' to show that loyalty.

If England beat France on penalties and go on to win the Euros with Jordan Henderson in midfield, Southgate will be 'right' to have shown loyalty. If they lose that same shoot-out, he'll be slaughtered for being too loyal.

As with almost all things in fitba, the 'analysis' of these things is just retrofitted onto results.

In reality, the margins are generally tiny, and there are a million wee things that will influence success or not. But sports writers need to make their pursuit seem intellectual to justify their existence, so we get this stuff analysed to the nth degree. It's perfectly possible to pick the right team, get unlucky, and fail or pick the wrong team, get lucky, and win. But this is seldom reflected in how these things are covered. It has to be mastery, intelligence, wisdom! It's often just luck.

Edited September 12, 2023 by VincentGuerin

[2426255]

35 minutes ago, VincentGuerin said:

All things in fitba are judged on results.

If we don't score two goals at the death in Norway, then SC is being too loyal to players who are past it. But we did, so he was 'right' to show that loyalty.

If England beat France on penalties and go on to win the Euros with Jordan Henderson in midfield, Southgate will be 'right' to have shown loyalty. If they lose that same shoot-out, he'll be slaughtered for being too loyal.

As with almost all things in fitba, the 'analysis' of these things is just retrofitted onto results.

In reality, the margins are generally tiny, and there are a million wee things that will influence success or not. But sports writers need to make their pursuit seem intellectual to justify their existence, so we get this stuff analysed to the nth degree. It's perfectly possible to pick the right team, get unlucky, and fail or pick the wrong team, get lucky, and win. But this is seldom reflected in how these things are covered. It has to be mastery, intelligence, wisdom! It's often just luck.

Yes, that captured what I was trying to say earlier. The methodology and logic behind Southgate and Clarke's decision making is in my opinion likely to be very similar and I suspect maybe quite uniform in coaching across Europe - a standard, accepted practice of building a core team.

He has maybe chosen the wrong players to be loyal too or maybe they will repay him in the future, but that's why I'm a little bit hesitant to pile in on Southgate. While the picture might not look good right at this moment, it might look better later for example if he were to win the Euros with Maguire and so on.

You can see it unfold, all the inconsistencies and contradictions in what Southgate said two years ago getting picked apart by fans and the media. Steve Clarke doesn't face that scrutiny right now, it gets glossed over because of results - it's out there though, Clarke's made mistakes and contradicted himself too and I think that's where I have some sympathy for Southgate. There's an unfairness to it all.

Edited September 12, 2023 by 2426255

[craigkillie]

1 hour ago, The Moonster said:

I think it is fair criticism tbh. Clarke spoke in his interview you kindly linked to yesterday that he feels he picked the correct players to be loyal with and that's justified with the number of caps those players now have and success we've had along with it. Southgate is being loyal to players but is struggling to take England to the next level. He has them doing what they always do - take care of qualifying with no problems but falling when they meet a big dog in latter stages of tournaments. The approaches may be similar but one is yielding relative success and one isn't, so I think it's fair to question whether Southgate was firstly correct to follow that approach and secondly to continue with it.

 

I would argue in terms of pure tournament outcomes that Southgate is the most successful England manager in decades. A Euros final and World Cup SF and QF puts him well ahead of anyone other than Ramsey.

[The Moonster]

Just now, craigkillie said:

 

I would argue in terms of pure tournament outcomes that Southgate is the most successful England manager in decades. A Euros final and World Cup SF and QF puts him well ahead of anyone other than Ramsey.

It's a fair argument but it's also true that they've struggled against other big nations. He's doing a decent but unspectacular job IMO.