Minimum Alcohol Pricing

[topcat(The most tip top)]

1 minute ago, blackislekillie said:

They obviously haven't watched Falkirk. 

Given that following a football club is essentially an exercise in masochism I try to watch Hearts sober as trying to numb the pain seems like cheating 

[Bairnardo]

5 minutes ago, blackislekillie said:

They obviously haven't watched Falkirk. 

We're positively cavalier this season. 

 

Still love Tennents tho 

[blackislekillie]

10 minutes ago, topcat(The most tip top) said:

Given that following a football club is essentially an exercise in masochism I try to watch Hearts sober as trying to numb the pain seems like cheating 

At half time on Saturday I wished I had a crate of vitamin T with me .

[FFCinthearea]

Alcohol related deaths in 2022 accounted for 2% of the total.     Obesity related deaths accounted for 23%

Maybe it's time to focus on the elephant in the room?

[Salt n Vinegar]

2 hours ago, FFCinthearea said:

Alcohol related deaths in 2022 accounted for 2% of the total.     Obesity related deaths accounted for 23%

Maybe it's time to focus on the elephant in the room?

Why? Folk would complain that doing something about obesity was more nanny state stuff.  It's odd really. Education about the adverse consequences of alcohol abuse and obesity would probably save the country a fortune in heath expenditure.  

Maybe football clubs could make a start by banning unhealthy food and drinks from stadium catering.  The days of Pie and Bovril might be numbered! The site would have to be renamed "Almond milk & Hummus".

[Bairnardo]

6 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Why? Folk would complain that doing something about obesity was more nanny state stuff.  It's odd really. Education about the adverse consequences of alcohol abuse and obesity would probably save the country a fortune in heath expenditure.  

Maybe football clubs could make a start by banning unhealthy food and drinks from stadium catering.  The days of Pie and Bovril might be numbered! The site would have to be renamed "Almond milk & Hummus".

You are correct I think. Folk would complain, and rightly so. Education and an attempt to shift unhealthy cultures is the way to go here. The idea that you can tax your way out of trouble on these issues is an embarrassment. For a govt that is showing really progressive attitudes towards drug addiction even in the face of a hostile UK gov, they seem to have a real blind spot where alcohol abuse is concerned. 

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, Bairnardo said:

You are correct I think. Folk would complain, and rightly so. Education and an attempt to shift unhealthy cultures is the way to go here. The idea that you can tax your way out of trouble on these issues is an embarrassment. For a govt that is showing really progressive attitudes towards drug addiction even in the face of a hostile UK gov, they seem to have a real blind spot where alcohol abuse is concerned. 

Incorrect. The problem is that the public health lobby is obsessed with taxing consumption but never want to actually tax outcomes which is what actually matters. A straightforward fat tax (or 'health dividend') on income tax and National Insurance contributions would create a genuine incentive for people to regulate their own behaviour. Taxing consumption does nothing to solve the problem of obesity and hurts the poor like all regressive taxes at purchase.

The act of measuring outcomes on an annual basis for tax purposes would also go some way to reconnecting a completely disjointed health service for those who aren't babies or coffin dodgers phoning up the GP at 8:00am on the dot. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

3 hours ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

Why? Folk would complain that doing something about obesity was more nanny state stuff.  It's odd really. Education about the adverse consequences of alcohol abuse and obesity would probably save the country a fortune in heath expenditure.  

Maybe football clubs could make a start by banning unhealthy food and drinks from stadium catering.  The days of Pie and Bovril might be numbered! The site would have to be renamed "Almond milk & Hummus".

(Widely available) almond milk and hummus are two of the ultra-processed foods that the public health lobby are having a meltdown about right now. Only fresh water and brown rice will do. 

[Bairnardo]

12 minutes ago, virginton said:

Incorrect. The problem is that the public health lobby is obsessed with taxing consumption but never want to actually tax outcomes which is what actually matters. A straightforward fat tax (or 'health dividend') on income tax and National Insurance contributions would create a genuine incentive for people to regulate their own behaviour. Taxing consumption does nothing to solve the problem of obesity and hurts the poor like all regressive taxes at purchase.

The act of measuring outcomes on an annual basis for tax purposes would also go some way to reconnecting a completely disjointed health service for those who aren't babies or coffin dodgers phoning up the GP at 8:00am on the dot. 

Bit off topic for the drink thread, and there is already a fat tax thread tbf, but it's education before taxation for me. If education fails then sure, go more extreme if its a must, but we haven't tried education. Iv posted plenty about attitudes to food and cooking in other threads, but my opinion is we are sorely lacking to the point on non existence in terms of teaching people from a young age how to shop for, prepare and cook a balanced diet. 

[Granny Danger]

7 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Bit off topic for the drink thread, and there is already a fat tax thread tbf, but it's education before taxation for me. If education fails then sure, go more extreme if its a must, but we haven't tried education. Iv posted plenty about attitudes to food and cooking in other threads, but my opinion is we are sorely lacking to the point on non existence in terms of teaching people from a young age how to shop for, prepare and cook a balanced diet. 

Totally in favour of that, but if people’s economic circumstances mean they don’t have the money to buy the ingredients, a suitable place to prepare the meal and maybe even the time to do so then they will always go for the cheaper, quicker, and most likely unhealthier, option.

[parsforlife]

3 minutes ago, Granny Danger said:

Totally in favour of that, but if people’s economic circumstances mean they don’t have the money to buy the ingredients, a suitable place to prepare the meal and maybe even the time to do so then they will always go for the cheaper, quicker, and most likely unhealthier, option.

You can add ability to purchase to that list.  There's communities where the local off-licence is the only realistic place to shop from and they don't tend to carry many ingredients for home cooking,  nevermind things on the healthier side of that.

[vikingTON]

38 minutes ago, Bairnardo said:

Bit off topic for the drink thread, and there is already a fat tax thread tbf, but it's education before taxation for me. If education fails then sure, go more extreme if its a must, but we haven't tried education. 

We really have tried education.  The idea that the UK population are oblivious to the impacts of going to Greggs or McDonalds for their meal or the impact of sitting on a couch throughout their free time is naïve. They do know - they also don't care. Most people put their short-term interests ahead of long-term health at least some of the time. The only issue here is that too many are taking that choice on a too regular basis, which causes measurable health problems in the long term. It's really that straightforward. 

The only way to adjust that reality is by hitting people in terms of financial outcomes (tax) to incentivise them to maintain a healthy balance. A tax on mere consumption does not actually achieve this. 

Edited September 22, 2023 by vikingTON

[vikingTON]

8 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

You can add ability to purchase to that list.  There's communities where the local off-licence is the only realistic place to shop from and they don't tend to carry many ingredients for home cooking,  nevermind things on the healthier side of that.

Can you provide some examples of places where the off license is the only realistic place to shop from? 

Food deserts undoubtedly exist in the USA, but I think you're exaggerating the situation here. 

[parsforlife]

19 minutes ago, virginton said:

Can you provide some examples of places where the off license is the only realistic place to shop from? 

Food deserts undoubtedly exist in the USA, but I think you're exaggerating the situation here. 

There's quite a few ex-mining villages in fife that will result in a near 2 hour round trip on public transport if you don't get lucky on timetables to the nearest supermarket,  maybe you consider that realistic, I wouldn't.

[Todd_is_God]

2 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

There's quite a few ex-mining villages in fife that will result in a near 2 hour round trip on public transport if you don't get lucky on timetables to the nearest supermarket,  maybe you consider that realistic, I wouldn't.

Get your shopping delivered if that's the case.

[parsforlife]

3 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Get your shopping delivered if that's the case.

Which generates extra cost,  I would have thought that to be obvious

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Which generates extra cost,  I would have thought that to be obvious

More than it costs to run a car to go? More than getting public transport?

Delivery costs are as low as £1.50/£2

[parsforlife]

29 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

More than it costs to run a car to go? More than getting public transport?

Delivery costs are as low as £1.50/£2

Remember we are looking at areas of low income where running a car is beyond many and I’ve already stated why public transport is impractical for them.  They are also rarely in the lowest delivery costs, many nearer £4-5 which may not seem a lot but if it’s 10% of your bill and your on a shoestring then you’ll notice it.  We also need to consider minimum purchase amounts which are harder to achieve when you are living hand to mouth.

[Todd_is_God]

8 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Remember we are looking at areas of low income where running a car is beyond many and I’ve already stated why public transport is impractical for them.  They are also rarely in the lowest delivery costs, many nearer £4-5 which may not seem a lot but if it’s 10% of your bill and your on a shoestring then you’ll notice it.  We also need to consider minimum purchase amounts which are harder to achieve when you are living hand to mouth.

^^^ excuses. The more people bend over backwards to excuse poor dietary choices, the less impetus there is for those making said choices to change.

We need to stop hiding behind "body positivity" and call obesity out for what it is. 

RE the bit in bold. Plan ahead. Book flexible delivery slots. There are plenty ways to avoid the premium delivery charges.

[parsforlife]

1 minute ago, Todd_is_God said:

^^^ excuses. The more people bend over backwards to excuse poor dietary choices, the less impetus there is for those making said choices to change.

We need to stop hiding behind "body positivity" and call obesity out for what it is. 

RE the bit in bold. Plan ahead. Book flexible delivery slots. There are plenty ways to avoid the premium delivery charges.

Ability to forward plan is nearly always worse when on a low income, you’re much more likely to need to take any shift given when your only choice is a 0 hour contract as an example.

I’m not asking to call overweight people as anything other than that,  but we do need to talk about the additional factors that contribute to it. Just shouting fat b*****d at folk clearly doesn’t work.

Talking about factors which contribute can only help. Even if you don’t change those factors you at least make the candidate aware and they can take that into account when making choices,  i really really don’t think there’s large amount of people sitting around eating shit who are thinking it’s ok cos Tesco is too far, that’s not how it works.