Minimum Alcohol Pricing

[Salt n Vinegar]

1 hour ago, scottsdad said:

Read the actual research, not the BBC one-line summary.

Since MUP came in, alcohol related deaths have increased in Scotland. Ignorjng the inflation costs etc, the policy has failed on its own terms. The hardcore alcoholics will miss food, stop heating and so on to keep drinking. 

Overall consumption (ie social drinking) is down a bit. 

So...where does the headljne "13% fewer deaths" line come from? Simple. Since MUP, deaths due to alcohol in North East England rise also, and at a slightly faster rate than in Scotland. That's it. It was all extrapolated from that one comparison. 

If I was going to delve even deeper into this I'd need to see more detailed info on the breakdown of the figures. An increase in deaths since 2018 is hardly surprising given the mass "stay at home" message for a fair proportion of the population due to COVID with pubs shut for ages and folk drinking in the house using "house" measures.  Boredom possibly contributed to increased consumption.

However, I think I've said as much as I think is necessary on this, so unless anything significant crops up, I'll leave it for now.

[scottsdad]

13 minutes ago, Salt n Vinegar said:

If I was going to delve even deeper into this I'd need to see more detailed info on the breakdown of the figures. An increase in deaths since 2018 is hardly surprising given the mass "stay at home" message for a fair proportion of the population due to COVID with pubs shut for ages and folk drinking in the house using "house" measures.  Boredom possibly contributed to increased consumption.

However, I think I've said as much as I think is necessary on this, so unless anything significant crops up, I'll leave it for now.

Have a look at my post from March 21st 2023.

It goes into a detailed breakdown of the lancet article.

Anyway, as a reminder here is the graphs from that article.

Show me the big drop from 2018 please.

[Left Back]

2 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Have a look at my post from March 21st 2023.

It goes into a detailed breakdown of the lancet article.

Anyway, as a reminder here is the graphs from that article.

Show me the big drop from 2018 please.

You’re missing the point.  It’s now that pesky Covids fault alcohol deaths haven’t fallen like a stone.

[scottsdad]

Just now, Left Back said:

You’re missing the point.  It’s now that pesky Covids fault alcohol deaths haven’t fallen like a stone.

It's getting the blame alright.

You can see the early 2020 dip in the graph at the top. I don't believe deaths actually dropped, just that hospitals stopped admitting people and also attributed deaths to the virus.

[Left Back]

3 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

It's getting the blame alright.

You can see the early 2020 dip in the graph at the top. I don't believe deaths actually dropped, just that hospitals stopped admitting people and also attributed deaths to the virus.

There is no place for reasoned logic here.

[HibeeJibee]

Basically they claim it's stopped deaths rising more than they have (i.e. it hasn't improved the situation but otherwise matters would have got even worse) - and it needs to be higher to work better (i.e. it's not ineffective it's that we need more of it).
 

52 minutes ago, GTee said:

Does this need to be passed in Parliament by all parties. There was carry on about gender stuff before, but all parties agreed to it. Or is it SNP and Greens are pushing it through.  Don't like it either way. 

Minister sets the level via 'statutory instrument' e.g.:      The Alcohol (Minimum Price per Unit) (Scotland) Order 2018 (legislation.gov.uk)

Edited February 9 by HibeeJibee

[Molotov]

2 hours ago, RH33 said:

What mysoginistic language?

I really hope that @sophia clearly explains exactly what I’ve written that is misogynistic.
If I have written something misogynistic I would obviously apologise. 

 

[19QOS19]

I'm not sure if it's more concerning or more comical that the folk running our country think raising prices will solve addiction. If folk have an addiction they'll get the money to pay for the product by any means necessary. That's pretty basic stuff. 

[Trogdor]

31 minutes ago, 19QOS19 said:

I'm not sure if it's more concerning or more comical that the folk running our country think raising prices will solve addiction. If folk have an addiction they'll get the money to pay for the product by any means necessary. That's pretty basic stuff. 

This is broadly the view I take as well.

[strichener]

A more obvious example of "don't back down, double down" you won't find.

It doesn't work, the evidence shows this.  As a non-drinker this has absolutely no impact on myself but it is bad legislation, poorly implemented and neither benefits the public health or public purse.  Bin it.

 

Edited February 10 by strichener

[No_Problemo]

7 hours ago, Trogdor said:

This is broadly the view I take as well.

 

8 hours ago, 19QOS19 said:

I'm not sure if it's more concerning or more comical that the folk running our country think raising prices will solve addiction. If folk have an addiction they'll get the money to pay for the product by any means necessary. That's pretty basic stuff. 

As well as going down other routes, such as attempting to drink hand sanitiser etc etc. 

 

[Billy Jean King]

I think the MUP policy isn't really having the effect it was intended however there are a couple of questions about how to deal with that.

 

Assuming those opposing it at Holyrood have a majority after the next Scottish election will they simply abolish it and if they do will alcohol come down in price ie how will manufacturers and retailers actually deal with it. I have a hunch the geenie is out the bottle (no pun intended) here and even if scrapped the cost of alcohol will either stay roughly as it is or be reduced a penny or two. Retailers will have this "built in" to overall costs and as they are the main beneficiary as it stands, I simply don't see them slashing the price of booze if the flawed scheme is scrapped unfortunately. It's not a direct tax that would simply be removed.

Think this has got to the stage of damned if they do and damned if they don't for us the consumers. 

[Todd_is_God]

3 minutes ago, Billy Jean King said:

even if scrapped the cost of alcohol will either stay roughly as it is or be reduced a penny or two. Retailers will have this "built in" to overall costs and as they are the main beneficiary as it stands, I simply don't see them slashing the price of booze if the flawed scheme is scrapped unfortunately. It's not a direct tax that would simply be removed.

Think this has got to the stage of damned if they do and damned if they don't for us the consumers. 

Perhaps true for small retailers, but in that scenario I don't see the major supermarkets maintaining higher prices on affected products than in England.

[Billy Jean King]

2 minutes ago, Todd_is_God said:

Perhaps true for small retailers, but in that scenario I don't see the major supermarkets maintaining higher prices on affected products than in England.

A lot of those are done through BOGOF or 3 for 2 and these offers are still controlled by local Council licenses. South Ayrshire are your original prohibition merchants, been banned here for years now. Now beer on the beach, not even allowed points on loyalty cards for booze or quiz vouchers to be used for alcohol. 

[Todd_is_God]

12 hours ago, HibeeJibee said:

Basically they claim it's stopped deaths rising more than they have (i.e. it hasn't improved the situation but otherwise matters would have got even worse) - and it needs to be higher to work better (i.e. it's not ineffective it's that we need more of it).
 

Minister sets the level via 'statutory instrument' e.g.:      The Alcohol (Minimum Price per Unit) (Scotland) Order 2018 (legislation.gov.uk)

It's covid all over again. When the data doesn't show something worked, just say it made the situation less worse than if it wasn't in place.

It's impossible to say whether politicians making said claims do so knowingly, or if they just don't understand the data and are parroting what they've been told it shows.

[Todd_is_God]

1 minute ago, Billy Jean King said:

A lot of those are done through BOGOF or 3 for 2 and these offers are still controlled by local Council licenses. South Ayrshire are your original prohibition merchants, been banned here for years now. Now beer on the beach, not even allowed points on loyalty cards for booze or quiz vouchers to be used for alcohol. 

Yeah that's a fair point.

[Suspect Device]

18 hours ago, Rugster said:

Sophia is a lunatic best ignored, to be fair. 

I can see what you mean.

17 hours ago, sophia said:

Please desist with your misogynistic language. It's not a good look. 

The substantive issue that the typical p&b pile-on ignores is the necessary and urgent health intervention that would be to our collective advantage. 

I read rants but nothing to suggest that there is anything more than a broad aquiescence that our drinking culture* as it presents should persist. Maybe I'm flat out wrong and nothing needs to change. 

 

*it's culture Jim but not as we know it

 

For instance.

16 hours ago, RH33 said:

What mysoginistic language?

 

There was none. Unless she us trying to say that the term twat is misogynistic.  Like c**t, I'd say it is gender neutral despite what it literally means. Males, females and everything in between can be twats or c***s.

[Molotov]

34 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

I can see what you mean.

For instance.

 

There was none. Unless she us trying to say that the term twat is misogynistic.  Like c**t, I'd say it is gender neutral despite what it literally means. Males, females and everything in between can be twats or c***s.

Twat?

It was my acronym to describe Tokely:

Tosser w****r Arsehole Thug. 

Apologies if I never made that clear. 

[Suspect Device]

Just now, Molotov said:

Twat?

It was my acronym to describe Tokely:

Tosser w****r Arsehole Thug. 

Apologies if I never made that clear. 

I'm just glad somebody else hates Tokely as much as I do.

An utter c**t of a man. Pardon my misogyny. 

[Billy Jean King]

12 minutes ago, Suspect Device said:

I'm just glad somebody else hates Tokely as much as I do.

An utter c**t of a man. Pardon my misogyny. 

The vast majority of Saints fans share your hatred stemming back to a horrendous assault on Martin Baker (IIRC) years ago.