A Diamond For Me Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 hour ago, scottsdad said: Long term, I agree with you. As a society young folk don't have the drinking culture that past generations had. That's certainly true. I'm in my mid 30s, and have always been teetotal. This was really unusual when I was in high school and university (though I certainly never got any grief for it), but it's really common now, and a lot of my friends from those days drink a lot less and a lot less often than they used to. Cultural changes come about for different reasons (including education), and something that's hard to quantify is the degree to which it being more expensive made and makes it less desirable for kids with only pocket money to spend. I think the change is happening internationally, but since Scotland has had a particularly problematic drinking culture it may well have needed more things shoving it into that general trend than other places might. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 2 hours ago, Hard Graft said: The money raised from MAP should have been used for education purposes instead of lining shopkeepers pockets. A seemingly sensible point that has been made several times by sensible people prompting other sensible and slightly better informed people to point out that such a move would involve reserved powers and couldn't be done by Holyrood 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
topcat(The most tip top) Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) 1 hour ago, scottsdad said: Yep, this is the argument that the government has been making. It's based on one study published in the Lancet. The issue I have with the study is that it took data from May 2018 (introduction of MUP) through to (I think) 2021. In other words, it included the data from the first Covid lockdown. The number of reported hospitalisations and deaths due to alcohol dramatically decreased during that 3 month period as hospitals basically didn't take in anyone. We see a significant dip there. When comparing with the north of England (the 'control' group) the dip is a bit less deep. This difference, this 3 month period, is the basis of the claim that it has saved something like 13% of lives. As a scientist, for me that is bad data. The study should have gone from May 2019 to February 2020, then resumed once the lockdowns were finished with. If you put in bad data, results coming out are unreliable. Many alcohol related deaths in lockdown 1 were attributed to Covid instead. For me, there just isn't any clear data showing the benefits of MUP. There is evidence of the harm it is causing (a few studies) the most hardcore alcoholics. Long term, I agree with you. As a society young folk don't have the drinking culture that past generations had. it's a failed experiment in the scientific sense as opposed to the political sense Covid means that the data is so contaminated by outside factors that you can't really draw any strong conclusions one way or another By raising MUP to adjust for inflation the government's plan seems to be to reset the experiment and run it again. Edited September 12 by topcat(The most tip top) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 3 hours ago, houston_bud said: I'm not sure I would say it is majority being punished. Course it is. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted September 12 Author Share Posted September 12 37 minutes ago, houston_bud said: That's interesting, I didn't realise that it was based on such a short (and unusual) time. Is that the only real study that's been done into the impact of it? There have been several studies covering many aspects. The PHS report (here) discusses the papers. However, you can see all the way through the report that they give high significance to papers that show benefits of MUP and no significance to papers that show downsides. A couple of quotes from that report though for interest sake: Quote In a study of those with current or recent experience of homelessness, two out of 46 interviewees reported reducing their alcohol use, primarily ‘cheap’ cider, and increasing their use of cheap benzodiazepines Quote Holmes and colleagues heard interviewees with probable alcohol dependence describe MUP as creating increased financial strain, leading them to employ a number of existing strategies such as reducing spending on non-alcohol essentials including food and paying bills, seeking help from charities or borrowing money. The finding that some drinkers would borrow money, potentially exacerbating existing financial hardship, was echoed in McCann and colleagues’ N-of-1 study of self-identified ‘heavy drinkers’. Quote However, following implementation of MUP, those working with homeless and street drinkers only reported observing increases in existing tendencies towards robbing and stealing in a minority of drinkers Quote A small number of small retailers mentioned observing an increase in shoplifting, which they perceived to be due to MUP Quote Qualitative interviews with the families of people who drink at harmful levels provided some accounts of concerns about impacts on household budgets and the potential for increased domestic violence Look at table 3 (page 81) - it summarises the data. Again, beware that this report is very skewed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 1 hour ago, scottsdad said: Yep, this is the argument that the government has been making. It’s the exact same comments made to defend ineffective measures during Covid. Whenever there was no evidence to show something made any impact, just say “aye but it would have been worse if we didn’t do this, honest” and move on. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyle Lanley Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 (edited) Pint glasses with no logos on them coming to a pub near you soon. Edited September 12 by Lyle Lanley 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted September 12 Share Posted September 12 29 minutes ago, Lyle Lanley said: Pint glasses with no logos on them coming to a pub near you soon. I think it would be fair to say at this stage that the SG have no idea how to address the issue and instead are flinging about nonsense ideas in the hope that eventually the headline figure will reduce and they can pretend it was because of some wacky initiative they introduced and congratulate themselves If, as has been mentioned a few times, increaaingly less younger people are interested in alcohol then this will come down naturally as older people who do drink heavily die off. But it won't come down until then. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 (edited) Pint glasses with no logo Honestly. The f**king nick this country is about to be in with Labour throwing all their chips in on being a Tory austerity tribute act and this lot are rabbiting on about pint glass logos. Something you literally don't see until you have already decided you want a pint and ordered one. Give me f**king strength Edited September 13 by Bairnardo 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hard Graft Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 8 hours ago, Lyle Lanley said: Pint glasses with no logos on them coming to a pub near you soon. From the government that brought you " No Horizontal Drinking" you really cannot make this up. No idea of reality at all. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Twelve Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 1 hour ago, Hard Graft said: you really cannot make this up I don't know. If you read the article, it seems that the Record might have. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Waldo Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 21 hours ago, topcat(The most tip top) said: A seemingly sensible point that has been made several times by sensible people prompting other sensible and slightly better informed people to point out that such a move would involve reserved powers and couldn't be done by Holyrood Well, certainly since they stopped the Public Health Supplement in 2015. Maybe the even better informed could look into it. "we have also been asked whether a ‘windfall’ could be recouped by Government in any way. As it stands the answer is ‘possibly’". It is a possibility, if the willingness is there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottsdad Posted September 13 Author Share Posted September 13 Last week on the radio there was a guy on representing independent shopkeepers. He was all for MUP, and had argued strongly for it in the part. The reason wasn't anything to do with health. Supermarkets were undercutting your local shops and this would "level the playing field". 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Central Belt Caley Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 10 hours ago, Lyle Lanley said: Pint glasses with no logos on them coming to a pub near you soon. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lyle Lanley Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 2 hours ago, Hard Graft said: From the government that brought you " No Horizontal Drinking" you really cannot make this up. No idea of reality at all. Looking forward to having a criminal record for wearing an old Hibs top sponsored by Carlsberg. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Twelve Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 f**k sake, this is mental. Here's what Neil Gray actually said: "I will commission Public Health Scotland to carry out a review of the evidence on the range of options to reduce exposure to alcohol marketing." The Record appear to have made up the bit about pint glasses. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Todd_is_God Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 1 hour ago, Alan Twelve said: f**k sake, this is mental. Here's what Neil Gray actually said: "I will commission Public Health Scotland to carry out a review of the evidence on the range of options to reduce exposure to alcohol marketing." The Record appear to have made up the bit about pint glasses. Possibly, though not without merit as I am certain they have floated that idea previously. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wee-Bey Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 How many deaths is acceptable before we finally put and end to the scourge of letters on glasses? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bairnardo Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 5 minutes ago, Cheese said: How many deaths is acceptable before we finally put and end to the scourge of letters on glasses? Without visual warnings of fluids like Carling or Fosters, what's to stop me consuming them by accident? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carpetmonster Posted September 13 Share Posted September 13 Just now, Bairnardo said: Without visual warnings of fluids like Carling or Fosters, what's to stop me consuming them by accident? Your tastebuds, in those cases. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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