What is the point of Labour ?

[D Angelo Barksdale]

Ben Garrison levels of horny here from Steve Bell.

[NotThePars]

Think this guy and Owen Hatherley have a good take on the essence as to why things are not proceeding smoothly

[Detournement]

The Labour leadership banning CLPs from not only discussing Corbyn but discussing the ban on Corbyn is another example of the authoritarian drift we are seeing everywhere in the west.

4 years of a party that fights for the working class but achieved nothing has led to one hell of a crackdown.

[Guest Jedi]

Surely in Scotland, Labour have to enter the elections in May with a proper 'middle ground' between Indy and the 'status quo' this time.

I know we have heard the sham of Devo Max, the Vow, the most powerful devolved parliament in the world etc all before, but..a real recognition that the union is done in its present form, and almost an FFA with defence and foreign affairs being retained at Westminster, and that's about it.

If they can't have a proper grown up conversation with Indy leading in the polls now, to put clear ground between themselves and the Tories on the constitution they never will. It is impossible for them to out 'union' the Tories.

'If' they put a real proposal on the table, in the form of 'a future Labour govt commits to full devolution for Scotland, Wales, an English Assembly, and a real reform of the House of Lords, to make it a federal chamber', they could have some hope of at least regaining some ground...otherwise..

 

Edited November 26, 2020 by Jedi

[mizfit]

Surely in Scotland, Labour have to enter the elections in May with a proper 'middle ground' between Indy and the 'status quo' this time.
I know we have heard the sham of Devo Max, the Vow, the most powerful devolved parliament in the world etc all before, but..a real recognition that the union is done in its present form, and almost an FFA with defence and foreign affairs being retained at Westminster, and that's about it.
If they can't have a proper grown up conversation with Indy leading in the polls now, to put clear ground between themselves and the Tories on the constitution they never will. It is impossible for them to out 'union' the Tories.
'If' they put a real proposal on the table, in the form of 'a future Labour govt commits to full devolution for Scotland, Wales, an English Assembly, and a real reform of the House of Lords, to make it a federal chamber', they could have some hope of at least regaining some ground...otherwise..
 

Back a vote and remaining neutral on the subject is the best way for them to win back some voters.

[Guest Jedi]

Agree that that would at least be a step forward.....back a vote in the event of an SNP majority, and allow their members and MSPs to campaign and vote for Yes, if they want, but also a proper more federal solution, as the status quo is completely done with Brexit, and an 80 seat Tory manjorty.

[DrewDon]

To be honest, I haven't noted much desire for a 'federal solution' outwith Gordon Brown and a few thinktanks.

I sense that the vast majority of Scottish Labour's ever-dwindling activist base is very pro-union. Most polls I've seen recently tend to show a decent minority of Scottish Labour voters are pro-independence, or at least pro-referendum, but that's not reflected in their remaining membership or elected representatives. 

[jakedee]

The Westminster Parliament would never pass a vote for a Federal solution.
It's a non starter, I thought everyone would have got that by now.

[NotThePars]

34 minutes ago, Jedi said:

Surely in Scotland, Labour have to enter the elections in May with a proper 'middle ground' between Indy and the 'status quo' this time

Nope!

4 minutes ago, DrewDon said:

To be honest, I haven't noted much desire for a 'federal solution' outwith Gordon Brown and a few thinktanks.

Yup!

[Detournement]

I don't see why they should. 

They should run on being a left wing influence in a potential hung parliament and oppose the SNP's overly strict summer lockdown measures and the idiotic Hate Crime speech bill.

[Detournement]

Good to see her owning Liz Truss but does anyone actually care?

It's getting to the point where the Tories could announce they are castrating every male who earns less than £20k pa and the country would shrug.

[AMMjag]

1 hour ago, Jedi said:

Agree that that would at least be a step forward.....back a vote in the event of an SNP majority, and allow their members and MSPs to campaign and vote for Yes, if they want, but also a proper more federal solution, as the status quo is completely done with Brexit, and an 80 seat Tory manjorty.

The Labour Party's ideological and organisational structure is, fundamentally, unitary and British Nationalist, so they're about as likely to cede any ground to Scottish Independence as the Tories are. 

There is no plausible 'middle ground' either - 'federalism' of any kind is completely unworkable in the UK and the devolution well is pretty much dried up. 

This is why their membership has been hoovered up by the SNP (and the Tories to a lesser extent in Scotland), leaving an embarrassing rump made up of 60+ year olds, UWS undergrads with pink hair, and people who have Mrs Brown's Boys on box set.

[Guest Jedi]

They have to shift in some way on the Constitutional question though...simply saying No to a Referendum in the next parliament, will only aline them with the Tories and lead to them finishing 3rd (at best). 

Federalism could work if the second chamber required a 'majority' of two of the four areas for a vote, otherwise, clearly the numerical superiority of English members would always carry.. The biggest downside to the whole endeavour is certainly that it still leaves the 'UK' out of the EU.

There must still be some scope for FFA for Scotland, although it would also require the establishment of an English Assembly.

As things stand at the moment, a post-Independence Scotland will still be dominated by the SNP unless Labout gets its act together to be able to at least from some effective opposition.

[Gordon EF]

I think Labour are genuinely almost completely boxed out of an electoral comeback in Scotland as things stand. Too many potential Labour voters have split off to the SNP / Tory along attitude to independence lines. There is no middle ground constitutional argument that will both win enough voters back and have any chance of happening.

The only path is the excruciatingly difficult pitch that a Labour led UK, outside the EU is the best scenario for Scotland right now. Is it possible to find a leadership and manifesto that would convince enough Scots to go for it as well as win back the Gammon Wall down south? Unlikely.

[Granny Danger]

12 minutes ago, Gordon EF said:

I think Labour are genuinely almost completely boxed out of an electoral comeback in Scotland as things stand. Too many potential Labour voters have split off to the SNP / Tory along attitude to independence lines. There is no middle ground constitutional argument that will both win enough voters back and have any chance of happening.

The only path is the excruciatingly difficult pitch that a Labour led UK, outside the EU is the best scenario for Scotland right now. Is it possible to find a leadership and manifesto that would convince enough Scots to go for it as well as win back the Gammon Wall down south? Unlikely.

And the more Starmer appeals to the prejudices of Northern England the more marginal SLab will become.

You hate love to see it

[D Angelo Barksdale]

It feels like we discuss this every few weeks tbh.

Labour are pretty fucked electorally due to the untenable status quo.

Ironically, their best hope is a 2nd referendum. A Yes win and they can build back towards being the natural centre left party of governance. A No win would put the issue to bed and they may very well win back votes from the SNP.

 

[DrewDon]

Also, a referendum gives the third party a platform that they don't have in 'normal' times, which benefited Ruth Davidson and the Tories last time out. Still, I'm not sure there is anybody in Scottish Labour capable of taking advantage of such an opportunity even if it did come along, and the majority of the hard unionist vote is safely in the hands of the Tories anyway.

[Detournement]

42 minutes ago, Henderson to deliver ..... said:

No win would put the issue to bed 

 

No chance unless it was under 45%.

Experience shows that referendums only escalate things. 

[Thistle_do_nicely]

10 minutes ago, Detournement said:

No chance unless it was under 45%.

Experience shows that referendums only escalate things. 

yeah, I had wondered about that myself. if theres a second indyref and the yes vote gets, say, more votes than in 2014 but it's a narrower % of say 48% then the swing is small enough that another indyref could conceivably return independence in a pretty short timescale, so a few more SNP majorities (SNP campaigning would pretty much have to go from any mention of another referendum to "only we can fight to get more powers for Holyrood and look after your interests at Westminster") would be motivation enough to keep the pressure up.

Could end up dragged into a pointless conflict in the Middle East that's deeply unpopular in Scotland which brings up the question again, who knows what the future holds. Probably a pointless conflict in the Middle East tbf.

Might split a bit more between SNP / Greens especially on the list seats but personally I can't see myself ever voting for a unionist party again, referendum or no referendum.

Edited November 26, 2020 by Thistle_do_nicely

[D Angelo Barksdale]

7 minutes ago, Detournement said:

No chance unless it was under 45%.

Experience shows that referendums only escalate things. 

Do you think a 3rd referendum would be granted by Westminster?

Calling for a 3rd referendum after 2 defeats in the space of 6 or 7 years, with absolutely zero chance of getting one sees a decent chunk of soft Yes and soft No voters ditch the SNP imo. Not to mention the 'holding my nose till after indy' voters too.