What is the point of Labour ?

[scottsdad]

4 hours ago, williemillersmoustache said:

No matter how many times Broon is wheeled out to sell his tattered and grubby wares it is remarkable how he is never, ever asked how he intends to gain consent for them from the Scottish electorate. As though his sage like musing that "this is actually what Scotland wants or needs" is sufficient to impose his grand plan. And lets be absolutely clear about this, major constitutional reform is so far down Sir Keith of BrexiterLegHumpers list of to do's Labour wouldn't deliver it, even if they wanted to or could. And they don't. And can't.

Fair point - what has devolution delivered for Labour, the Tories or the Lib Dems? Very little in terms of Scotland. They'll be very, very wary of making any further changes to the status quo as any changes will likely benefit the SNP rather than themselves. 

[Antlion]

18 minutes ago, scottsdad said:

Fair point - what has devolution delivered for Labour, the Tories or the Lib Dems? Very little in terms of Scotland. They'll be very, very wary of making any further changes to the status quo as any changes will likely benefit the SNP rather than themselves. 

Aside from the fact that Labour can’t make changes to the status quo, what’s bizarre is that they’re still peddling their magic beans to … who, exactly? Independence supporters want independence from the UK. UK nationalists would happily see Holyrood (and presumably the name “Scotland”, the “National Library”, the “National Gallery”, etc.) abolished. In a world in which duplicitous grifters have flourished, Labour still manage to f**k up by continually touting snake oil that there’s not even a market for. Absolute fucking incompetents.

[williemillersmoustache]

If I'm totally honest, some kind of federalised UK with an elected second chamber or senate type arrangement, a proportional first chamber, electronic voting, proper controls on lobbying and privilege, no people in tights with swords, a reshaped parliament which is not adversarial, an elected head of state and a properly codified devolved/UK settlement so a crude English plurality can't just steamroller everything wouldn't be the worst thing. I wouldn't mind living in that sort of a UK. 

It's just absolutely not fucking happening, particularly not via electing Keir Starmer or Anas Sarwar, and its completely delusional to think that it would.

And completely dishonest to imply that these kind of opinions, which I don't think I'm alone in having, translates as a desire far less a mandate for Scotland's constitutional future to be decided via Gordy fucking Broon yawning on and on in a room with some handpicked ex-Labour MPs and other assorted people we've rejected at the ballot box.

 

 

[Antlion]

2 minutes ago, williemillersmoustache said:

If I'm totally honest, some kind of federalised UK with an elected second chamber or senate type arrangement, a proportional first chamber, electronic voting, proper controls on lobbying and privilege, no people in tights with swords, a reshaped parliament which is not adversarial, an elected head of state and a properly codified devolved/UK settlement so a crude English plurality can't just steamroller everything wouldn't be the worst thing. I wouldn't mind living in that sort of a UK.

 

 

I wouldn’t have, prior to Brexit - now, even the unicorn of a federalised UK can go and shove its horn up Johnson’s sagging hoop. We wouldn’t be allowed to rejoin the EU or have any kind of self-determination as far as wider political unions go as long as we remained a part of Brexit Britain.

The commonly quoted idea that a federal UK wouldn’t work because of the disparity in populations apparently doesn’t matter when the nations with smaller populations are robbed of their rights and privileges in terms of international organisations. Federalism wouldn’t be fair on England - that’s bad. The current UK isn’t fair on Scotland - that’s good.

[williemillersmoustache]

11 minutes ago, Antlion said:

I wouldn’t have, prior to Brexit - now, even the unicorn of a federalised UK can go and shove its horn up Johnson’s sagging hoop. We wouldn’t be allowed to rejoin the EU or have any kind of self-determination as far as wider political unions go as long as we remained a part of Brexit Britain.

The commonly quoted idea that a federal UK wouldn’t work because of the disparity in populations apparently doesn’t matter when the nations with smaller populations are robbed of their rights and privileges in terms of international organisations. Federalism wouldn’t be fair on England - that’s bad. The current UK isn’t fair on Scotland - that’s good.

Aye, that horse has bolted, the doors have been closed and the stables burnt down.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

Tartan Tories over Labour. 

That's big sad. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

50 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Tartan Tories over Labour. 

That's big sad. 

The current Labour Party are further to the right than the SNP are atm.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

2 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

The current Labour Party are further to the right than the SNP are atm.

That's an intriguing position. 

I'd say the dogwhistle Nationalism they engage in and the covid authoritarianism is more of a social issue rather than Labour echoing some vote winning rhetoric in the red wall areas. 

[williemillersmoustache]

2 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

The current Labour Party are further to the right than the SNP are atm.

Most of them are further to the right than the One Nation Tory crowd Boris executed to get Brexit done. 

 

 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

12 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

That's an intriguing position. 

I'd say the dogwhistle Nationalism they engage in and the covid authoritarianism is more of a social issue rather than Labour echoing some vote winning rhetoric in the red wall areas. 

The Labour Party also do dogwhistles and authoritarianism.

They are undoubtedly moving to the right of the SNP.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

3 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

The Labour Party also do dogwhistles and authoritarianism.

They are undoubtedly moving to the right of the SNP.

I'd disagree on the level of which they do it. I find the SNP to be quite odious and callous towards people that disagree with them aside from a select few in the Labour Party I don't believe it's on the same level at all. I don't believe Labour get much profit from division whereas it's all the SNP have right now. The Labour Party has improved significantly under the new leadership when it comes to fighting silly little culture war type fights imo. 

Would you rather have the Labour Party in charge of the UK or the Conservative party? 

[Clown Job]

22 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Would you rather have the Labour Party in charge of the UK or the Conservative party? 

Neither

This is a big part of the problem with the UK also, Scotland (and NI) can reject both parties at the ballot box and still end up with one of them.

They have no real incentive to change, as long as they can win England they can win the UK

Changing the political set up of the UK to make things more even across the nations isn’t a vote winner in England, it’s probably the opposite 

[Albus Bulbasaur]

7 minutes ago, Clown Job said:

Neither

This is a big part of the problem with the UK also, Scotland (and NI) can reject both parties at the ballot box and still end up with one of them.

They have no real incentive to change, as long as they can win England they can win the UK

Changing the political set up of the UK to make things more even across the nations isn’t a vote winner in England, it’s probably the opposite 

I understand this frustration. The same happens to people in England and Wales. I don't think Labour needs to change though. I don't think Scottish values are so far away from what they stand for that it's a major issue for most people. 

I'm surprised you wouldn't prefer Labour over the Conservatives though. That would be a big positive for everyone in the UK imo. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

30 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I'd disagree on the level of which they do it. I find the SNP to be quite odious and callous towards people that disagree with them aside from a select few in the Labour Party I don't believe it's on the same level at all. I don't believe Labour get much profit from division whereas it's all the SNP have right now. The Labour Party has improved significantly under the new leadership when it comes to fighting silly little culture war type fights imo. 

Factional battles have increased not decreased since Starmer came to power. It was only last week they were threatening to throw out MP's and members who signed a Stop The War petition. They continue to purge left wing members and have adopted a confrontational approach to trade unions.

35 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Would you rather have the Labour Party in charge of the UK or the Conservative party? 

I'd prefer a Labour government, but in reality, the difference would be negligible.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

15 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

Factional battles have increased not decreased since Starmer came to power. It was only last week they were threatening to throw out MP's and members who signed a Stop The War petition. They continue to purge left wing members and have adopted a confrontational approach to trade unions.

I'd prefer a Labour government, but in reality, the difference would be negligible.

I'd disagree again on the factional battles. Labour has successfully lanced the crazy corbyn lot and all the infighting is a complete minor irrelevance rather than front page news that makes the party toxic. 

The Stop the War position was 100% the right move and is exactly the type of thing they need to do if they want to win an election. 

Again I would rank your perceived injustices as being less of an issue than the authoritarian and Nationalism we get with the SNP. This place is a fine example of the upset and tears and snotters produced if you actually disagree  with them. 

The UK needs a strong Labour party imo. 

[scottsdad]

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

Would you rather have the Labour Party in charge of the UK or the Conservative party? 

This is what it boils down to at election time. You will wake up the morning after the election with 5 more years of this current Tory government, or a Labour one. 

The thing is, Tories will take any kind of government they can. Ultra-right, moderately-right, a bit centrist, they'll take it all because as long as they are in power the country moves rightwards. 

Many Labour supporters and ex-Labour supporters are like goldilocks, waiting for the right kind of Labour party to come along and support, regardless of the consequences of 5 more years of Tory rule. 

[scottsdad]

30 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

I'd prefer a Labour government, but in reality, the difference would be negligible.

On many issues you are right. Foreign policy, Brexit, etc. there isn't a difference between them. 

On social issues though I'd back Labour. They would have, if in power, done something to help the poorest face the cost of living crisis. What we've had from the Tories is laughable. Just think of all we've lost since 2010 - Sure Start, school building programmes, low levels of child poverty, a fairly well funded NHS, and so on. 

[D Angelo Barksdale]

49 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I'd disagree again on the factional battles. Labour has successfully lanced the crazy corbyn lot and all the infighting is a complete minor irrelevance rather than front page news that makes the party toxic.  

This has come at the cost of losing a chunk of its electoral coalition, funding and activists. The funding will be replaced, but by people who will certainly be wanting something in return. Something that will most likely not be in the interests of working people.

It's no longer front page news because the right wing media have been appeased. For now.

57 minutes ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

The Stop the War position was 100% the right move and is exactly the type of thing they need to do if they want to win an election. 

The good type of authoritarianism then. 

1 hour ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

The UK needs a strong Labour party imo. 

Only if it is offering something different, otherwise we're left with a de facto one party state with 2 slightly different flavours.

[Albus Bulbasaur]

23 minutes ago, Detective Jimmy McNulty said:

This has come at the cost of losing a chunk of its electoral coalition, funding and activists. The funding will be replaced, but by people who will certainly be wanting something in return. Something that will most likely not be in the interests of working people.

It's no longer front page news because the right wing media have been appeased. For now.

The good type of authoritarianism then. 

Only if it is offering something different, otherwise we're left with a de facto one party state with 2 slightly different flavours.

Not familiar with the inner workings of political parties so I can concede on some level the first part of your post. I believe shifting to the centre and getting some centre right voters to be essential. I feel like your view might be a bit more pessimistic than mine in that respect. I don't see a centre Labour party as being a bad thing. 

Disagree regarding your authoritarianism point, that stuff is internal party politics whereas the SNP in general prefer to do it with the general populace imo. I'd say you could easily describe the current SNP as another similar flavour similar to Tories and Labour though. 

[Clown Job]

2 hours ago, Albus Bulbasaur said:

I don't think Scottish values are so far away from what they stand for that it's a major issue for most people. 

Was it last week Labour announced they’re standing a former head of the OO as a candidate for public office?

Some values eh