Competing with English Football

[pozbaird]

Haven’t contributed to the thread so far, but here’s my tuppenceworth on ‘English v Scottish football’. I support St Mirren and have done since 1976/77. I wouldn’t cross the road to watch any Scottish team bar St Mirren. Absolutely zero interest in settling down in front of the TV to watch, let’s say, Hearts v Aberdeen. Could. Not. Give. A. Fcuk.

I wouldn’t expect Hearts or Aberdeen fans to give a fcuk about St Mirren v Hamilton or St Johnstone by the way.

English football however, even though it’s clearly fcuked in the head in regard to finances... I enjoy sitting down to watch, oh, let’s say Newcastle v Liverpool or Spurs v Man City. There’s more strength in depth. Six clubs can genuinely claim to have title aspirations. Beyond those big six, going to places like Everton, West Ham or suchlike is no cakewalk to get the points.

Up here, there’s one club who will win the title, and if going to Ibrox or Pittodrie is their ‘challenge’, then how did that work out for them last season? The only question is how many points will they win the league by. Excuse me for not giving much of a flying F.

No doubt, the shit will hit the fan down there eventually. Maybe. It isn’t real though, is it? Debt, and football clubs. Does anyone actually think English football is going to disappear up its own arse in a massive financial implosion? Of course it isn’t.

The EPL and St Mirren are the only football I watch. I have zero interest in La Liga, Bundesliga, Seria A or Ligue 1. Absolutely no interest whatsoever. In England, I have a grasp of the history of their clubs, the cities they come from, and of the people. The Geordies and Scousers, Cockneys and Brummies. What I know of, or care about, in regard to the likes of Deportivo La Coruna, Sampdoria or Lyon you could write on the back of a postage stamp.

I am interested in, and follow, the teams in my signature text. I like and enjoy EPL football and make no apology for it.

[EdTheDuck]

5 minutes ago, gannonball said:

What on earth are you slavering in about? We can’t  just turn up at the negotiation table at the TV companies or the SPFL and say we are taking a bigger percentage cut, no club would agree to it.  For it to change it would require 10 clubs agreeing to it, not going to happen.

They would block it, you fucking dimwit. You and your brothers-in-arms would block it until they got what they wanted.

[kennysmassiveego]

10 hours ago, Austinho said:

We can’t and IMO shouldn’t be trying to compete with the English game. I don’t really want to see an Old Firm League match being played in America in front of a sea of green and blue half & half scarves, League Cup draws being made in Thailand brought to you by FunXX721Xbet.com™, or clubs having official noodle and tractor partners (not a bad option for St Johnstone mind you).

The Scottish game does need money though, and it does need marketed differently. If anything, we should be doing the exact opposite of what England does and play up the ‘proper football’ for ‘proper people’ angle more. Advertising should revolve around the fans, the passion, the smell of pies and bovril, the gritty unkept terraces and the silly and absurd stuff that can only be found in Scottish football. Think balls getting stuck in hedges etc. There is a niche out there for it - look at the success of FC United for example. Fans who were sick of seeing the soul being stripped from their club who were attracted to something more honest. We can be tongue in cheek about our game without taking the piss out of it.

Some say we are stuck in the past, romancing about the glory years of Scottish football, but they should rightly be celebrated. Stop blindly following the English structure of Prem, Championship, League 1 etc. Call them their proper names - Division 1, Division 2, Division 3. Introduce more safe standing. Introduce more singing sections right behind the goals. Make the game more appealing on TV by banning (or encouraging) clubs from filling other areas of the stadium when there are masses of empty seats visible on camera (I am looking at you Kilmarnock ) . Everyone is attracted to a full looking stadium and a good atmosphere - both when watching on TV and when actually deciding to attend the game. 

Without selling our soul, we need to appeal to television audiences outside Scotland. TV deals in America, Australia, Ireland and the like. Niche audiences in other countries. How about a tongue in cheek ad campaign in Qatar promoting the Scottish leagues to the locals because ‘we don’t want you missing out when we don’t qualify for 2022’. Or St Johnstone adverts in Perth, Australia saying ‘Don’t just follow the glory - support Perth’s finest’. Oops... I’m brainstorming out loud.

How does Killie accomplish this feat without it looking as naff as f**k on the tele ? 

‘Or do you just want us to demolish 1 or 2 stands to make it more attractive the TV executives ? 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 hours ago, Buddist Monk said:

Completely agree, but that plays against your notion of population though.

No it doesn't.

It corresponds directly with it.

[parsforlife]

I dont know why they didnt want to get rid of the 10-2 vote when Rangers died.

Because Stewart Milne is a c**t.

The tv money distribution has improved under the last days of the spl and under the spfl but 2 premiership clubs can still prevent further progress.

I was too young to remember anything about the formation of the spl, but why on earth did the 8 other clubs agree to a massively biased distribution of prize money and a voting structure that meant the two clubs that benefited could prevent it ever being changed.

[gannonball]

25 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

They would block it, you fucking dimwit. You and your brothers-in-arms would block it until they got what they wanted.

The TV deals are not part of the 11-1 system as far as Im aware, its only if its percentage cut changes that needs a higher vote. Which is why when Celtic, Rangers and Aberdeen all voted against the setanta deal it still went ahead.

[Monkey Tennis]

59 minutes ago, gannonball said:

Tv money was always split evenly I thought?  

And that's the rock bottom OF ignorance we're all trying to deal with.

From the creation of the SPL in 1998, TV money has been dished out  as prize money dependent on league placing.  It's improved a bit since the SPFL came into being, but it used to be that first and second got similarly large sums, before it fell away sharply for third.  Wonder why that was.

It's also the case that the OF sides only really get screened away from home, meaning  only the others have home  fixtures moved and gates hit.

Open your eyes to how these things actually work up here.

[Dons_1988]

And that's the rock bottom OF ignorance we're all trying to deal with.
From the creation of the SPL in 1998, TV money has been dished out  as prize money dependent on league placing.  It's improved a bit since the SPFL came into being, but it used to be that first and second got similarly large sums, before it fell away sharply for third.  Wonder why that was.
It's also the case that the OF sides only really get screened away from home, meaning  only the others have home  fixtures moved and gates hit.
Open your eyes to how these things actually work up here.

A quick check shows back in 2009 the top 2 took 32% of the revenue in total.

[gannonball]

 

19 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

And that's the rock bottom OF ignorance we're all trying to deal with.

It's also the case that the OF sides only really get screened away from home, meaning  only the others have home  fixtures moved and gates hit.

Open your eyes to how these things actually work up here.

There is ignorance, and stupidity. There is a maximum number of tv games allowed at each ground per year and Celtic have always had the full allocation at their ground. 

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, gannonball said:

 

There is ignorance, and stupidity. There is a maximum number of tv games allowed at each ground per year and Celtic have always had the full allocation at their ground. 

Have they?  Is the maximum two then, because I can recall very few live games at Parkhead other than OF clashes.

Are you denying that the pattern I identified exists?

[Monkey Tennis]

39 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

I was too young to remember anything about the formation of the spl, but why on earth did the 8 other clubs agree to a massively biased distribution of prize money and a voting structure that meant the two clubs that benefited could prevent it ever being changed.

They agreed because a huge part of it involved cutting the rest of the then SFL adrift.

The whole carve up favoured the OF disproportionately, but the other founding clubs of the SPL were despicably complicit and that was because they wished to hoist the drawbridge.  The stupid ground criteria, alongside  1 up; 1 down without play-offs, served the same purpose.

[EdTheDuck]

28 minutes ago, Monkey Tennis said:

Have they?  Is the maximum two then, because I can recall very few live games at Parkhead other than OF clashes.

Are you denying that the pattern I identified exists?

Opening Day - raise the flag,

Final Day - trophy presentation.

Guaranteed sell-outs as the hordes fight to bask in reflected glory

ETA Aberdeen & Hibs had 6 home games televised, Hearts & Kilmarnock 5 so, no, Celtic did NOT have any maximum number of games shown

[Peppino Impastato]

1 hour ago, pozbaird said:

Haven’t contributed to the thread so far, but here’s my tuppenceworth on ‘English v Scottish football’. I support St Mirren and have done since 1976/77. I wouldn’t cross the road to watch any Scottish team bar St Mirren. Absolutely zero interest in settling down in front of the TV to watch, let’s say, Hearts v Aberdeen. Could. Not. Give. A. Fcuk.

I wouldn’t expect Hearts or Aberdeen fans to give a fcuk about St Mirren v Hamilton or St Johnstone by the way.

English football however, even though it’s clearly fcuked in the head in regard to finances... I enjoy sitting down to watch, oh, let’s say Newcastle v Liverpool or Spurs v Man City. There’s more strength in depth. Six clubs can genuinely claim to have title aspirations. Beyond those big six, going to places like Everton, West Ham or suchlike is no cakewalk to get the points.

Up here, there’s one club who will win the title, and if going to Ibrox or Pittodrie is their ‘challenge’, then how did that work out for them last season? The only question is how many points will they win the league by. Excuse me for not giving much of a flying F.

No doubt, the shit will hit the fan down there eventually. Maybe. It isn’t real though, is it? Debt, and football clubs. Does anyone actually think English football is going to disappear up its own arse in a massive financial implosion? Of course it isn’t.

The EPL and St Mirren are the only football I watch. I have zero interest in La Liga, Bundesliga, Seria A or Ligue 1. Absolutely no interest whatsoever. In England, I have a grasp of the history of their clubs, the cities they come from, and of the people. The Geordies and Scousers, Cockneys and Brummies. What I know of, or care about, in regard to the likes of Deportivo La Coruna, Sampdoria or Lyon you could write on the back of a postage stamp.

I am interested in, and follow, the teams in my signature text. I like and enjoy EPL football and make no apology for it.

I just like football.  I watch the highest quality and most enjoyable football I can find.  I watched about 200 games of la Liga last season and maybe ten from the premiership.  You're missing out, la Liga is way better.  Number one ranked league in the world for almost twenty years now, almost all of the world's best players, technically far superior, stylistically much more intriguing and aesthetically pleasing.  It's definitely the best.

[Girth]

Salford are an oddball outfit revered by proper non league English fans. It will go tits up eventually.

 

Billericay are the same but even worse.

 

As someone who watches English non league and Scottish football the comparison is ridiculous.

 

Hereford (my team) recently went up to level 6 with a healthy support (2000-3000). However, certain clubs in the Conference North are throwing money around like crazy chasing the dream. Despite our decent support it’ll be difficult to compete due to the ridiculous amount of money being pissed about.

 

In the last 10-15 years we’ve seen Weymouth, Lewes, Hornchurch and now Salford and Billericay throwing stupid money around (and paying the price) when really these clubs are (at best) Conference clubs due to size and having bigger teams nearby.

 

Crawley, Fleetwood and Forest Green seem to be three teams that are being bankrolled successfully. I’m sure these clubs (and Salford and Billericay) can easily outspend most of Scotland’s elite clubs.

 

However, comparing two completely different sized countries (just because they’re next to each other and play the same sport) is ridiculous and very lazy journalism.

 

The British media is bias in favour of the English game. Of that there is no question.

 

Even the Welsh league tries to promote itself well. However, there are constant comparisons to Welsh clubs in the English pyramid which is unfair and unrealistic.

 

Scottish football and English football are two incomparable sports. I (for one) much prefer the Scottish system to any sort of dull millionaire English Premiership crap any day.

 

 

 

[Monkey Tennis]

38 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

Opening Day - raise the flag,

Final Day - trophy presentation.

Guaranteed sell-outs as the hordes fight to bask in reflected glory

ETA Aberdeen & Hibs had 6 home games televised, Hearts & Kilmarnock 5 so, no, Celtic did NOT have any maximum number of games shown

Yes, I'd imagine that a minimum is fulfilled, as opposed to a maximum.

[Jim McLean's Ghost]

35 minutes ago, EdTheDuck said:

Opening Day - raise the flag,

Final Day - trophy presentation.

Guaranteed sell-outs as the hordes fight to bask in reflected glory

ETA Aberdeen & Hibs had 6 home games televised, Hearts & Kilmarnock 5 so, no, Celtic did NOT have any maximum number of games shown

Actually the real answer is that Sky have exclusive rights to games at Ibrox and Celtic Park. They can broadcast 4 games from each ground.

For every other club there can be a maximum of 6 broadcasts with 3 from BT and 3 from Sky.

Those restrictions cover the 60 live SPFL Premiership games.

[Jimboyjones1976]

2 hours ago, gannonball said:

What on earth are you slavering in about? We can’t  just turn up at the negotiation table at the TV companies or the SPFL and say we are taking a bigger percentage cut, no club would agree to it.  For it to change it would require 10 clubs agreeing to it, not going to happen.

Strictlnspeaking thewas probably could. ALl itnwould take is for them to say that and show their intention for the whole pack of cards to collapse. IIRC, this was the case with the old SPLTV idea. Wasn’t it Celtic and Rangers who pulled out of it? In terms of TV deals, there will always be one but it would look a better package with Old Firm games. They would simply just wait till the next contract negotiations to show their hands.

[Monkey Tennis]

3 minutes ago, Jimboyjones1976 said:

Strictlnspeaking thewas probably could. ALl itnwould take is for them to say that and show their intention for the whole pack of cards to collapse. IIRC, this was the case with the old SPLTV idea. Wasn’t it Celtic and Rangers who pulled out of it? In terms of TV deals, there will always be one but it would look a better package with Old Firm games. They would simply just wait till the next contract negotiations to show their hands.

Rangers' exile (or re-birth or whatever) showed that the value of OF fixtures had been a bit overstated.  It was important for broadcasters to be able to show both Celtic games and Rangers games, but showing them in competition with each other, while desirable, wasn't necessary. 

The deal barely suffered and non OF clubs didn't really suffer at all.  In fact some made historic gains in the terms that actually matter for football clubs and their fans.

[Guest Moomintroll]

Just read the Sunday Mail there, cannot believe I was using virtually identical phrases to one of their columnists so therefore I take back everything I said.

[EdTheDuck]

27 minutes ago, Jim McLean's Ghost said:

Actually the real answer is that Sky have exclusive rights to games at Ibrox and Celtic Park. They can broadcast 4 games from each ground.

For every other club there can be a maximum of 6 broadcasts with 3 from BT and 3 from Sky.

Those restrictions cover the 60 live SPFL Premiership games.

Didn't know that but it does not surprise me that there's a lower limit for the ugly sisters.  The only surprise is that it isn't a maximum of 2