Scotland v Belgium (07/09/18)

[Gordopolis]

4 hours ago, BigFatTabbyDave said:

They really did look like they were having a charity kickabout at times, which was the most depressing part of yesterday's game. It's one thing to take a tanking from a top side giving it their best, but anyone who watched the World Cup will be well aware that Belgium went easy on us.

You can't blame them either; they've got a much tougher competitive game on Tuesday against...Iceland  

Iceland took a 6-0 fondling off of Switzerland tonight. Not sure how that reflects on your point but reassuring to know our result won't be the worst of this window.

[skippy2015]

It's easy to be revisionist about it. But Strachan, perhaps unsurprisingly for an England-based manager, favoured mediocre underperforming players from down south  over in-form home players. His own hubris and stubbornness meant he refused to acknowledge his bias until it was too late – I wonder how we'd have got on if Griffiths had been given a chance earlier in that World Cup campaign. He deserved to be punted just for spouting weird theories about genetics while still playing Barry Bannan at every opportunity.
But in retrospect – not even that actually, it was obvious to anyone who'd seen recent interviews with McLeish – Strachan was a far better manager than McLeish, who is sadly just a shambles.
But it's not right to say there were no realistic options, though. Was there any effort at tempting McInnes or Clarke, or Lennon or Tommy Wright.  Any of them would have been better. In truth, it's hard to think of a worse option than what we ended up with. There was never any logic to McLeish's appointment, other than he was desperate for the job.
I think we have better players than four years ago. It's a shame to dilute that promise with such a dreadful manager.

Players like Ryan jack? Lol

It was a mistake not playing Griffiths and Armstrong earlier in the campaign and listening to the fans / hype and playing Ollie Burke against Lithuania at home was another error.

When Strachan got the job during 2014 qualifying campaign he played Griffiths quite a bit for example 2-0 defeat to Belgium and the 1-0 win against Croatia . He’s as good as said it was an error not playing Griffiths from the start of the campaign but all managers make mistakes.

Shouldn’t have been sacked it was ridiculous and I said it on here at the time. Unbeaten in 2017 under him on a roll so we sack the manager. Strachan was a manager who never has the buy in amongst fans unfortunately and some fans just had unreasonable hatred towards him. He did have the buy in of the team however that was obvious.

Think we will win on Monday and then things wont seem as bad I’m more worried about the longer term as performance wise we have moved backwards from Strachan time.

[pandarilla]

Using McLeish as a way to try and talk up Strachan is stupid. McLeish may be the wrong decision to replace him, but that doesn't mean it was the wrong decision to get rid of someone who brought his multiple failures on himself.

There wasn't a realistic improvement.

Theoretical yes, but never realistic.

[BFTD]

24 minutes ago, Gordopolis said:

Iceland took a 6-0 fondling off of Switzerland tonight. Not sure how that reflects on your point but reassuring to know our result won't be the worst of this window.

Thank f**k we weren't playing the Swiss, I suppose.

Or Belgium in a competitive game  

[skippy2015]

The dinosaur thing is not quite the right label IMO. He's significantly lowered the average age of the squad and seems to be pushing the players to adopt a passing game - and even if these are just two token measures to appease the fans, at least it is progressive. Tactically, he tried a few systems last night so it's not as if he's sticking to 'old skool 442 get the baw forward' or anything like that. And player-wise, as Kenny Miller said last night, there wasn't one name on the teamsheet (except maybe McDonald) that was a crazy or unjustified choice. Same goes at squad level.
He's doing the right things, but it just feels flat and uninspiring (So far. A few wins on the trot would probably change all that.)

I’ve attended every home game since 1998 and the best passing team we had was under Strachan!!!!

[DanMc99]

i just don't know what our strengths are now or even what our footballing "philosophy" is.

look at other countries - NI- hard to beat organised and physical, uruguayans are resolute , organised, bend the rules (obviously with more quality)

iceland are the same good technical players but hardly world beaters but they are organised.

 

we just seemed all over the shop last night, space all over the pitch for the belgians. i'd rather see us shore up at theback and protect our defence then work from there and play on the counter, i think thats our best option, we have enough pace in wide areas to trouble teams on the counter, the more we have the ball the worse we look.

[Gordopolis]

18 minutes ago, skippy2015 said:

I’ve attended every home game since 1998 and the best passing team we had was under Strachan!!!!

I'd agree with that, though the number of games where we 'clicked' in that style were too few (Lithuania away, ROI at home.)

[skippy2015]

I'd agree with that, though the number of games where we 'clicked' in that style were too few (Lithuania away, ROI at home.)

Yep results could have better but the 2 wins over Croatia and wins over Slovenia and Slovakia thought we played pretty well. That Slovenia game at home we should have won 3 or 4 0 as we missed so many chances. Looking back that 2014 qualifying group was solid Belgium Croatia Serbia wales Macedonia

[TheScarf]

Let’s not forgot that Strachan had us finish 4th in a qualifying group where it was nearly harder to not qualify for Euro 2016 than to qualify for it. 

A full 3 points behind South Ireland ffs.

[Jdog]

Wasn't McGregor banned for life by the SFA for playing for Scotland?

[Savage Henry]

2 hours ago, TheScarf said:

Let’s not forgot that Strachan had us finish 4th in a qualifying group where it was nearly harder to not qualify for Euro 2016 than to qualify for it. 

A full 3 points behind South Ireland ffs.

Smacking long balls 50 yards to Chris Martin, lest we forget.  Strachan played route one hoofball as much as any other manager did.

I'm not sure why the revisionism exists.  It was entirely right to sack Strachan, but entirely wrong to appoint McLeish.  

[Dunning1874]

11 hours ago, skippy2015 said:

Strachan was a manager who never has the buy in amongst fans unfortunately and some fans just had unreasonable hatred towards him. He did have the buy in of the team however that was obvious.

This is complete revisionism.

Fans were largely delighted with the appointment of Strachan, he was the name people were calling for even while Levein was still in charge and there was a massive amount of optimism going into the 2016 campaign. There was widespread and correct agreement that this was the best chance to qualify since the outrageously easy group Vogts had, and widespread agreement that Strachan was the man to do it.

Fans only started to turn against him when he presided over a disgraceful result in Georgia which alone cost us that campaign. Had we won that game we'd have made the playoffs and no amount of mewling about Thomas Muller against Ireland changes the fact that it shouldn't have been out of our hands in the first place.

This was then compounded by an absolutely shambolic opening to the 2018 campaign. A draw at home to Lithuania left us playing catch up with the rest of the group after only two games, which was followed by two absolute capitulations where we lost 3-0 in Slovakia then England, with all six goals we conceded coming from crosses into the box. Those two performances were worse defensively as Friday, it was a team in absolute disarray where it was clear that organisation rather than personnel was the problem. That we then tightened up the defence and played better football later in the campaign with players who had already been at his disposal is an indictment of the horrific job Strachan did for those three games which eliminated us and it's no wonder fans turned against him as a result.

[The Algebraist]

11 hours ago, DanMc99 said:

i just don't know what our strengths are now or even what our footballing "philosophy" is.

look at other countries - NI- hard to beat organised and physical, uruguayans are resolute , organised, bend the rules (obviously with more quality)

iceland are the same good technical players but hardly world beaters but they are organised.

 

we just seemed all over the shop last night, space all over the pitch for the belgians. i'd rather see us shore up at theback and protect our defence then work from there and play on the counter, i think thats our best option, we have enough pace in wide areas to trouble teams on the counter, the more we have the ball the worse we look.

Don't disagree with this but think you're being a bit generous.

All of those teams park the bus and hope to snatch one on the break in slightly different flavours. You could equally say Uruguay's strategy is "hope Godin keeps us a clean sheet and punt the ball to Cavani and Suarez at every opportunity". It's horrible to watch.

We tried to play on Friday, turned out it wasn't a good idea, but we tried. Think we actually have the players and opportunity to flex our style. Thing is you have to pick the right one.  Happy for us to try and play against Albania, trying to do so against Belgium was clearly a crap idea.

[TheScarf]

3 minutes ago, Dunning1874 said:

This is complete revisionism.

Fans were largely delighted with the appointment of Strachan, he was the name people were calling for even while Levein was still in charge and there was a massive amount of optimism going into the 2016 campaign. There was widespread and correct agreement that this was the best chance to qualify since the outrageously easy group Vogts had, and widespread agreement that Strachan was the man to do it.

Fans only started to turn against him when he presided over a disgraceful result in Georgia which alone cost us that campaign. Had we won that game we'd have made the playoffs and no amount of mewling about Thomas Muller against Ireland changes the fact that it shouldn't have been out of our hands in the first place.

This was then compounded by an absolutely shambolic opening to the 2018 campaign. A draw at home to Lithuania left us playing catch up with the rest of the group after only two games, which was followed by two absolute capitulations where we lost 3-0 in Slovakia then England, with all six goals we conceded coming from crosses into the box. Those two performances were worse defensively as Friday, it was a team in absolute disarray where it was clear that organisation rather than personnel was the problem. That we then tightened up the defence and played better football later in the campaign with players who had already been at his disposal is an indictment of the horrific job Strachan did for those three games which eliminated us and it's no wonder fans turned against him as a result.

Yep, picking guys like Snodgrass and Bannan over guys who were playing in Europe like Armstrong and McGregor was a sackable offence in itself. 

When he eventually worked out that these boys were clearly better than the EFL Championship boys who failed in previous campaigns, Scotland’s results improved. 

[Dunning1874]

6 minutes ago, TheScarf said:

Yep, picking guys like Snodgrass and Bannan over guys who were playing in Europe like Armstrong and McGregor was a sackable offence in itself. 

When he eventually worked out that these boys were clearly better than the EFL Championship boys who failed in previous campaigns, Scotland’s results improved. 

While it was the 2018 campaign where we descended into farce for a period of consecutive games and 2016 could be explained away as one blip, the most ridiculous decision on selections he ever made was still only starting Robertson 5 times out of the 10 games of the 2016 campaign.

Four of those starts were against Georgia and Gibraltar, with him being substituted at half-time in the Georgia away game. The only start against a qualification rival was at home to Ireland, and even at that he was only added to the starting line-up at the last minute as Morrison was injured in the warm up and he decided to move Mulgrew from left back to midfield.

I'm sure it's purely a coincidence that the one game of the six v our qualification rivals where we either won or kept a clean sheet was the one where we had our best defender who also offered an attacking outlet on the park, rather than Whittaker and Mulgrew getting a game v Poland and a game v Germany each there, or Craig Forsyth starting ahead of him in Ireland.

Generally I think people criticising that we don't bring young players through quickly enough are entirely missing the point of how young players establish themselves in international sides, but Strachan's handling of Robertson was an absolute disgrace. It's not like he was still only showing potential at this point either, he'd already established himself as a first team regular with Hull in the top flight.

Strachan's got a serious brass neck sounding off now about how you have to fit him in the team no matter what, having once overlooked him for Craig fucking Forsyth.

[skippy2015]

This is complete revisionism.
Fans were largely delighted with the appointment of Strachan, he was the name people were calling for even while Levein was still in charge and there was a massive amount of optimism going into the 2016 campaign. There was widespread and correct agreement that this was the best chance to qualify since the outrageously easy group Vogts had, and widespread agreement that Strachan was the man to do it.
Fans only started to turn against him when he presided over a disgraceful result in Georgia which alone cost us that campaign. Had we won that game we'd have made the playoffs and no amount of mewling about Thomas Muller against Ireland changes the fact that it shouldn't have been out of our hands in the first place.
This was then compounded by an absolutely shambolic opening to the 2018 campaign. A draw at home to Lithuania left us playing catch up with the rest of the group after only two games, which was followed by two absolute capitulations where we lost 3-0 in Slovakia then England, with all six goals we conceded coming from crosses into the box. Those two performances were worse defensively as Friday, it was a team in absolute disarray where it was clear that organisation rather than personnel was the problem. That we then tightened up the defence and played better football later in the campaign with players who had already been at his disposal is an indictment of the horrific job Strachan did for those three games which eliminated us and it's no wonder fans turned against him as a result.

The Germany Poland Ireland group was a hard group. On a result by result basis the Georgia result was the reason we didn’t qualify. I also though we were a little unlucky that campaign in both Poland games we could have had 6/6 instead of 2/6 if things go our way.

Another problem with sacking Strachan is you know their is a massive chance based on our recruitment strategy of the past ie Vogts Levein Burley that we will end up with a poorer manager.

Also please read posts on here around Strachan appointment it was 50 / 50 at best. Majority Celtic fans had same issue with him never accepted him even though brought them to last 16 of Champions league. Twice

Last point - Strachan made mistakes obviously but why sack him when he’s performing well the last year. If your going to sack him sack him prior to 2018 World Cup qualifiers. There is no sense sacking him when he’s got the team correct and team playing well.

[skippy2015]

Smacking long balls 50 yards to Chris Martin, lest we forget.  Strachan played route one hoofball as much as any other manager did.
I'm not sure why the revisionism exists.  It was entirely right to sack Strachan, but entirely wrong to appoint McLeish.  

Lol do you go to games or base this analysis on daily record player ratings and listening to sportsound.

I’m worried if you didn’t recognise a marked difference in style of play and the way we passed the ball especially in wide areas from Levein and burley days to Strachan.

[Guest Pampered Adolescent]

I wouldn't class myself as having 'unreasonable hatred' towards Strachan, however due to some of his bampot past quotes (e.g. velocity, sell by date, etc.), he didn't have a completely full tank of goodwill with myself.

Regarding Georgia, I partly blame the suits for agreeing to play there in September, where the ambient temperature would have been mid twenties, something Scots aren't acclimatised for, and nothing to do with genetics.

Back to McLeish, I was at his last ever game managing Motherwell where we promptly went 2-0 down to Hibs, who were utterly pish at the time. We did end up winning 6-2, that night; Jim Duffy's last game. McLeish inherited a solid Tommy McLean team, and through time, made them progressively inferior.

The world of football has changed immesurably since then. I am not seeing anything to suggest that McLeish has in any way moved with the times. And whilst all of us like to maximise our revenues for our families, many will not forgive him for his move to Birmingham, when by all accounts, compared to 95% of us here, he would have been a very wealthy man.

Finally, in my view, McLeish is the symptom, not the cause. Sadly I cannot see the necessary change at the SFA for our international fortunes to improve.

Cheers

PA

[Mr Heliums]

12 hours ago, skippy2015 said:

Players like Ryan jack? Lol

Depends who you're comparing them to. Strachan, after all, selected Third Division players in his squad. Craig Levein played Ian Black – just let the name percolate for a moment – and not just Ian Black, but Ian Black while he was playing in Scotland's bottom tier.  Ryan Jack is just another example of managers favouring Rangers players irrespective of ability. It shouldn't be a benchmark of overall quality of the squad. My point  was simply that I think Scotland could be a decent side, and now even have a couple of world-class players, but I doubt they'll fulfil their potential with McLeish in charge.

[Guest DAVIDB69]

Agree with what’s being said about strachan particularly in his loyalty to over the hill championship players he picked regularly

The only good thing about mcleish is he seems to have got rid of the many times failures the 30 something dads army side that strachan was loyal to.