Pyramid 2019/2020

[Burnie_man]

22 minutes ago, naebor said:

I agree and think personally travelling would be great but know a few senior and junior players and they say a lot of clubs either can’t afford are or refusing to give reasonable expenses, not saying it’s all about money but unless the leagues mostly made up of amateur players who will play for free and not moan about expenses, the clubs with the smaller backings will struggle when they try sign higher quality players or trying to keep a hold of players should someone else come calling.

Well once everyone is playing in the same league system (Pyramid), you will find the level your club can cope at, just like the Juniors where there are local league, and region wide leagues.

When it all happens, then there is likely to the Lowland League (everywhere in Scotland south of the Tay), maybe a LL2 covering same area, East of Scotland Premier (mostly Lothians, Borders and Fife), East of Scotland First (probably same as Premier), and then East of Scotland regional leagues (eg West Lothian/Fife and East/Midlothian/Borders). If more clubs on board then you may eventually see even more localised divisions eg West Lothian.

So it will be Local - Regional - Wider Regional - SPFL.  So if you're a smaller club who can't generate the turnover to pay expenses then you'll likely be in a local league anyway.

Edited November 1, 2018 by Burnie_man

[Marten]

2 hours ago, AsimButtHitsASix said:

Ye'd think Scotland was the size of Congo or Russia they way some folk are determined to regionalise everything. There are two hour journeys in the tenth tier in England, four hours in the 4th tier in Finland, etc.

Yet folk think if it aint walking distance then it's gonna cripple clubs in Scotland in the 5th/6th level

Travel can be an issue underneath the HL, especially considering in the more remote areas the road network is not exactly the greatest, and the islands are an issue too obviously. But underneath the LL it can't really be a problem.

On a sidenote, I wouldn't be against a system to subsidise travel for the real outliers, like Orkney if they were to progress into (for example) the Highland League. In some other countries (like France) and sports (like Rugby) this already happens. The same can go for opponents traveling there. Alternatively, subsidies can be provided for outliers to take part in the Scottish Cup to make it truly national so Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles can provide a team each.

[AlanCamelonfan]

24 minutes ago, Marten said:

Travel can be an issue underneath the HL, especially considering in the more remote areas the road network is not exactly the greatest, and the islands are an issue too obviously. But underneath the LL it can't really be a problem.

On a sidenote, I wouldn't be against a system to subsidise travel for the real outliers, like Orkney if they were to progress into (for example) the Highland League. In some other countries (like France) and sports (like Rugby) this already happens. The same can go for opponents traveling there. Alternatively, subsidies can be provided for outliers to take part in the Scottish Cup to make it truly national so Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles can provide a team each.

In Spain Las Palmas my Spanish Club have to fly every game the nearest game only because both are in LA LIGA 123 is Tenerife So i suppose we should be able to manage.

[Marten]

16 minutes ago, AlanCamelonfan said:

In Spain Las Palmas my Spanish Club have to fly every game the nearest game only because both are in LA LIGA 123 is Tenerife So i suppose we should be able to manage.

Are there any subsidies in Spain for island clubs, especially in lower tiers, when they have to go to the mainland?

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Travel can be an issue underneath the HL, especially considering in the more remote areas the road network is not exactly the greatest, and the islands are an issue too obviously. But underneath the LL it can't really be a problem.
On a sidenote, I wouldn't be against a system to subsidise travel for the real outliers, like Orkney if they were to progress into (for example) the Highland League. In some other countries (like France) and sports (like Rugby) this already happens. The same can go for opponents traveling there. Alternatively, subsidies can be provided for outliers to take part in the Scottish Cup to make it truly national so Orkney, Shetland and the Western Isles can provide a team each.

Now it really wouldnt be difficult for the sfa to establish some kind of remote travel fund to allow participation from these clubs, get a deal with an airline for travel every week or buy ferry space for away teams etc, I suppose the only draw back being the potential for teams to travel and the game being put off last minute and return travel to be cancelled due to weather. If it was once/twice a season at most im sure a lot of clubs would be ok with it, but it would need the sfa to shell out financially surely?

[Marten]

3 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Now it really wouldnt be difficult for the sfa to establish some kind of remote travel fund to allow participation from these clubs, get a deal with an airline for travel every week or buy ferry space for away teams etc, I suppose the only draw back being the potential for teams to travel and the game being put off last minute and return travel to be cancelled due to weather. If it was once/twice a season at most im sure a lot of clubs would be ok with it, but it would need the sfa to shell out financially surely?

Yes, the SFA would need to shell out, but for them it would only be a tiny percentage of their annual costs, that really shouldn't be a big issue. If the SRU can do it, who have much less money, than there is no reason the SFA can't. And in reality I can't see many clubs needing this, unlikely to be more than one each in Orkney/Western Isles and maybe some cup ties for a Shetland team (even with subsidies I can't see a Shetland team joining the pyramid and needing players to go on an overnight ferry or flight every other week).

[AlanCamelonfan]

21 minutes ago, Marten said:

Are there any subsidies in Spain for island clubs, especially in lower tiers, when they have to go to the mainland?

Not sure but actually on that they have a b side atletico. Mallorca were also in tier 3

[AsimButtHitsASix]

53 minutes ago, Inanimate Carbon Rod said:

Now it really wouldnt be difficult for the sfa to establish some kind of remote travel fund to allow participation from these clubs, get a deal with an airline for travel every week or buy ferry space for away teams etc, I suppose the only draw back being the potential for teams to travel and the game being put off last minute and return travel to be cancelled due to weather. If it was once/twice a season at most im sure a lot of clubs would be ok with it, but it would need the sfa to shell out financially surely?

Somewhere in the Nordics (I'm thinking Sweden with teams from Gotland but maybe Aland?) their league fixtures are (were?) sorted so that the island teams didn't play at home at the beginning/end of their season as the travel was too much of an issue for teams on the mainland only for it to be called off because of rough sailing or whatever.

I dunno why it was an issue for clubs travelling to an island, as opposed to away from an island, maybe the authorities just though the insular b*****ds could handle the sea sickness

[dwl123]

My only concern bout eventually setting up a LL2 is that when the whole non league arrangement is sorted LL2 would be on the same tier 6 as the Tayside league and the North juniors. As the lowland catchment covers twice as many clubs as the highland catchment I would like to see three equal leagues at tier 5 - HL 'LL west and 'LL east then regional leagues below that. The big caveat 're play offs is that SPFL club 42 gets automatic relegation and the 3 tier 5 champs fight it out for promotion.

[GordonS]

4 hours ago, Marten said:

Yes, the SFA would need to shell out, but for them it would only be a tiny percentage of their annual costs, that really shouldn't be a big issue. If the SRU can do it, who have much less money, than there is no reason the SFA can't. And in reality I can't see many clubs needing this, unlikely to be more than one each in Orkney/Western Isles and maybe some cup ties for a Shetland team (even with subsidies I can't see a Shetland team joining the pyramid and needing players to go on an overnight ferry or flight every other week).

FWIW, the SFA's turnover last year was £38.4m, the SRU's turnover was £57.2m.

[Marten]

Just now, GordonS said:

FWIW, the SFA's turnover last year was £38.4m, the SRU's turnover was £57.2m.

Ah, thanks for that, I wasn't expecting that!

[GordonS]

1 minute ago, Marten said:

Ah, thanks for that, I wasn't expecting that!

Yeah, it's surprising. The thing is that most of the money in football is with the clubs, while most of the money in rugby is with the unions. 

[FairWeatherFan]

On 21/05/2018 at 20:49, Tynierose said:

16 May 2018

To : All Clubs; Regional Secretaries, Management Committee.

Dear Sir / Madam

Given the conjecture following the recent meeting of the Pyramid Working Group, I thought it would be helpful to clarify the purpose of the meeting and what happens next.

The meeting was convened following a SFA Board Meeting on 21 April, where the Board agreed that the SFA should lead and facilitate a meeting which would allow the Juniors to be integrated into the Pyramid system.  The Group would be led by the SFA President.

Present at the Group meeting were representatives of the SFA, SJFA, EOS and LL with Highland League and SOS joining by conference call.

Discussion took place on how integration would work in terms of Registrations, Discipline and Fixture Lists in particular.  We were unable to resolve all the issues at the meeting however it was agreed that the SFA Board be appraised of the progress at their next meeting in June.  N.B. None of the issues raised appeared insurmountable.

The Chairman decided that a “straw poll” be taken regarding the Junior involvement in the Pyramid which was: 

EOS     – No.  However they did suggest that they had no objection to the West joining at Tier 6
SJFA      - Yes.
SOS    - Yes.
HL    - conditional on the previously discussed concerns, i.e. Registrations, Discipline, Fixture Lists being resolved.
LL    - conditional on the previously discussed concerns, i.e. Registrations, Discipline, Fixture Lists being resolved.

Further discussions took place regarding the Juniors entering a joint East / West combined Superleague in the Pyramid.

The SJFA Secretary advised he would contact the SFA Board requesting a decision at their meeting in June.

Yours faithfully

T.A. Johnston
T.A. Johnston
SECRETARY

I was just looking over some of the recent emails regarding the PWG meetings to remind myself what exactly has been said. 6 months of a basic agreement spread across 3 meetings and yet...nothing. I wonder if the 14th November meeting will be bogged down in the details once more.

[Burnie_man]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I was just looking over some of the recent emails regarding the PWG meetings to remind myself what exactly has been said. 6 months of a basic agreement spread across 3 meetings and yet...nothing. I wonder if the 14th November meeting will be bogged down in the details once more.

 

Thanks for that.  It illustrates that the position of the EoS hasn't changed.

[GNU_Linux]

I had no idea that Junior Superleague was still getting touted this year

[Burnie_man]

11 minutes ago, GNU_Linux said:

I had no idea that Junior Superleague was still getting touted this year

That was their preferred option.   Remember that TJ's mandate is to keep the Junior game intact and in the Pyramid, he'll do whatever is neccesary to achieve that as he doesn't have a mandate for anything else, so when the EoS refuse to accept the ERJFA into the Pyramid, TJ in theory can't agree a deal and sacrifice the East to make progress, he would probably need another EGM of members.

So we're back to two scenarios.  1) No progress without consensus amongst all PWG members, that is unlikely unless TJ agrees to compromise in the East which may not be in his power to do so and 2) The SFA run roughshod over the EoS in favour of TJ and the SJFA, which is unlikely.

 

 

[Vollyman]

That was their preferred option.   Remember that TJ's mandate is to keep the Junior game intact and in the Pyramid, he'll do whatever is neccesary to achieve that as he doesn't have a mandate for anything else, so when the EoS refuse to accept the ERJFA into the Pyramid, TJ in theory can't agree a deal and sacrifice the East to make progress, he would probably need another EGM of members.
So we're back to two scenarios.  1) No progress without consensus amongst all PWG members, that is unlikely unless TJ agrees to compromise in the East which may not be in his power to do so and 2) The SFA run roughshod over the EoS in favour of TJ and the SJFA, which is unlikely.
 
 
[/quot
According to mr maxwell’s e-mail he confirms that consensus as been agreed and the PWG meeting on the 14th November will discuss standardisation of player registration, discipline and fixture schedules.A party at the last PWG meeting seems to have misinterpreted the events of that meeting, it’s time the SFA clarified the situation.

[Burnie_man]

I think you'll find that the EoS's position hasn't changed (as per above email from TJ dated May),

"The Chairman decided that a “straw poll” be taken regarding the Junior involvement in the Pyramid which was: EOS     – No.  However they did suggest that they had no objection to the West joining at Tier 6"

If there is misinterpretation it isn't on the part of the EoS.  There is no consensus, and I understand that it has been requested that a prepared statement agreed by all parties is issued after the meeting on 14th to dispel any inconsistencies.

[parsforlife]

Can I take a wild unsubstantiated guess at the discussions?

'So it's agreed we'll have 4 leagues at tier 6, that will allow the junior teams in the west and tayside access to the pyramid'

LL/EoS/SoS interpret that meaning two newly formed leagues.

SJFA/Ian maxwell see that as ESJFA and WOSJFA joining untouched.

Everyone shakes hands and it only in the coming week or so it's realised the different parties thought they were agreeing to different things.

[FairWeatherFan]

6 minutes ago, parsforlife said:

Can I take a wild unsubstantiated guess at the discussions?

'So it's agreed we'll have 4 leagues at tier 6, that will allow the junior teams in the west and tayside access to the pyramid'

LL/EoS/SoS interpret that meaning two newly formed leagues.

SJFA/Ian maxwell see that as ESJFA and WOSJFA joining untouched.

Everyone shakes hands and it only in the coming week or so it's realised the different parties thought they were agreeing to different things.

The Ian Maxwell came off the back of a Professional Game Board meeting. So I don't believe the SJFA and EoS would of been represented.

In which case they probably only covered the cliff notes of the previous PWG meeting.  The continued differences weren't likely highlighted as significant.