Pyramid 2019/2020

[Black & Red Socks]

4 minutes ago, Dev said:

If there are enough interested new clubs (Whether they are currently Junior, Amateur or Youth) the Tier 8 Division could be regionalised so the Fife & Perthshire clubs etc wouldn't need to travel down to the Borders for league games. If regionalised though there would need to be two promotion places per each for these Tier 8 divisions. However, if Tier 7 is less than 16 clubs initially  there wouldn't need to be four clubs relegated. That would come in when the Division reached 16 clubs. When Tier 7 reaches 16 clubs the four down wouldn't be too bad.

This assumes that each  Tier 7 and 8 division starts with approximately the same number of clubs. Assuming Tier 6 has 16 clubs then, ideally, this could happen next season if the Tier 7 and 8 divisions had 12 clubs each. Ideally 52 clubs would be needed (16 ; 12; 12 ;12) in the league to make that work satisfactorily.

However, it could work with a lower number of clubs in the two Tier 8 divisions if something like the current cross conference games was brought in e.g. two Tier 8 divisions (North & West  and  South & East) with say 10 teams in each. This would give 18 league matches plus once each against the teams from the other conference so 27 in total. You would need 48 clubs for this.

Also agreed. 3 up into the Premier Division and 4 down into two regionalised Second Divisions from a 16 team First Division seems more than manageable and an ideal aim should numbers for such a regionalised Second Division allow. Cross division games, much like the cross conference games this season, would work very well too and give variety where it might be needed. If numbers don't allow for this set-up straight away then 3 up into the Premier Division and 2 down into a single Second Division also allows for good flow between the tiers. 

[gaz5]

Also agreed. 3 up into the Premier Division and 4 down into two regionalised Second Divisions from a 16 team First Division seems more than manageable and an ideal aim should numbers for such a regionalised Second Division allow. Cross division games, much like the cross conference games this season, would work very well too and give variety where it might be needed. If numbers don't allow for this set-up straight away then 3 up into the Premier Division and 2 down into a single Second Division also allows for good flow between the tiers. 

4 down from a 16 team league is too many and not the way it is this season under the Premier League either. That's near a 50% turnover in teams each year.

If you want to go 4 down so that top 2 in any conferences come up I think you'd need to do a minimum 18 team first division, personally.

But I also don't have an issue with 3 down/3up with the second places teams playing off for the third spot, like this year, at Tier 8.

[Black & Red Socks]

23 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

4 down from a 16 team league is too many and not the way it is this season under the Premier League either. That's near a 50% turnover in teams each year.
If you want to go 4 down so that top 2 in any conferences come up I think you'd need to do a minimum 18 team first division, personally.
But I also don't have an issue with 3 down/3up with the second places teams playing off for the third spot, like this year, at Tier 8.

To be pedantic, a turnover of 7 from 16 is nearer to 40% than it is to 50%

For me, refreshing the 'middle' Tier of the EoSFL in this way - should restructuring indeed come to pass to create Tiers 6, 7 & 8 - is, well, refreshing and helps keep interest at the top and bottom of the table and allows for the nine teams that are neither promoted nor relegated to be playing against a wider variety of teams over the seasons should they continue to remain in that middle ground. However, that said, your alternative suggestion of 3 up 3 down and a play-off isn't one I'd personally take issue with. It is, however, for the clubs to decide, although shaping the leagues as Tiers 6, 7 & 8, with regionalisation at Tier 8 if numbers allow, certainly seems the way forward that would offer the most solutions to most of the clubs.

Edited February 6, 2020 by Black & Red Socks

[FairWeatherFan]

I don't think you'll see 4 guaranteed anything when dealing with an imbalance from the top.

In time to come you could have one promoted from the EoS Premier but two relegated from the Lowland. That then has to get balanced out through the divisions. Unless there's an acceptance of 17-18 team leagues with balancing it out in the following season.

[Burnie_man]

It's 3 guaranteed, but possibly 4, from the EoS Premier.

[PastyMan]

5 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

It's 3 guaranteed, but possibly 4, from the EoS Premier.

Awww ffs

[gaz5]

It's 3 guaranteed, but possibly 4, from the EoS Premier.

Indeed, which would make it 4 possibly 5 from the EoS first, if they started with 4 down and as I said around 50% turnover for a league is too much in my opinion. [emoji846]

3 with a possibility for 4 depending on SPFL relegation/promotion is the right balance.

[Burnie_man]

You could perhaps do something like;

Bottom 3 down from First, 2 tier 8 Conference winners promoted.

If 4th bottom is also relegated then two Conference runners-up promoted without play-off.

If not, then fourth bottom and 2 runners-up play for two places (round robin) giving the fourth bottom a reasonable chance of staying up, and the two runners-up a similar chance of both getting promoted.

 

[gaz5]

You could perhaps do something like;
Bottom 3 down from First, 2 tier 8 Conference winners promoted.
If 4th bottom is also relegated then two Conference runners-up promoted without play-off.
If not, then fourth bottom and 2 runners-up play for two places (round robin) giving the fourth bottom a reasonable chance of staying up, and the two runners-up a similar chance of both getting promoted.
 

Not that it couldn't be done, but If 3 up/down is good enough for the premier to first...... [emoji846]

Change them both or change none for me.

[FairWeatherFan]

23 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

Indeed, which would make it 4 possibly 5 from the EoS first, if they started with 4 down and as I said around 50% turnover for a league is too much in my opinion.

3 with a possibility for 4 depending on SPFL relegation/promotion is the right balance.

Won't just be the SPFL playoff that could factor into extra promotion or relegation soon. Hopefully. 

 

[Burnie_man]

21 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

Not that it couldn't be done, but If 3 up/down is good enough for the premier to first......

Change them both or change none for me.

I think you need to consider that there are two Divisions/Conferences feeding into the First.  So you could finish third in the First and be promoted, but finish runners-up in a Conference and not be.   Plenty of movement is a good thing, so my Gran told me......

Anyway, we might not get that structure depending on how clubs vote, could be yet another season of Conference at tier 7.

[gaz5]

I think you need to consider that there are two Divisions/Conferences feeding into the First.  So you could finish third in the First and be promoted, but finish runners-up in a Conference and not be.   Plenty of movement is a good thing, so my Gran told me......
Anyway, we might not get that structure depending on how clubs vote, could be yet another season of Conference at tier 7.

Yeah I know, but I'd point out that's exactly the situation we're in this season with conferences below the premier and that's mainly my point.

There's currently two divisions/conferences feeding into the premier and 3 up/3 down is seen as plenty of movement.

Not that I'm complaining, as I think 3 up/3 down from 16 is about right regardless, just pointing out the inconsistency of thinking. [emoji846]

[Black & Red Socks]

15 minutes ago, gaz5 said:

Not that I'm complaining, as I think 3 up/3 down from 16 is about right regardless, just pointing out the inconsistency of thinking.

It's very far from inconsistency of thinking though, it's merely suggested evolution from where we are to where things might ideally be and making tweaks where tweaks are - perhaps - necessary. Is that not a good thing? You shouldn't continue to do something one way simply because that is always the way you've done it - is that not a criticism of another governing body outwith the Pyramid?! 

Edited February 6, 2020 by Black & Red Socks

[gaz5]

It's very far from inconsistency of thinking though, it's merely suggested evolution from where we are to where things might ideally be and making tweaks where tweaks are - perhaps - necessary. Is that not a good thing? You shouldn't continue to do something one way simply because that is always the way you've done it - is that not a criticism of another governing body outwith the Pyramid?!  [emoji4]

Yeah, except that's not even close to what I'm saying. [emoji846]

Change is good, when there's a good argument for it and it makes things better or it's a unique way to solve a problem (like the current conferences).

But saying go 7 up/7down is also change. Doesn't make it a good idea or better than what we have.

I'm simply saying I don't think 4, possibly 5 down from a league of 16 is a positive change and no one has made an argument for how it would be, yet. If someone makes a valid argument about the benefits and why it would be better, happy to listen.

Apply 4/5 down and 4 up to the current Conference tables, with conferences notionally regionalised and see what you think.

Not saying this will always be the case, but there's a big jump between 8th & 9th in the each conference and the current bottom 3 & 4 in each.

[Black & Red Socks]

Yeah, except that's not even close to what I'm saying. [emoji846]

Change is good, when there's a good argument for it and it makes things better or it's a unique way to solve a problem (like the current conferences).

But saying go 7 up/7down is also change. Doesn't make it a good idea or better than what we have.

I'm simply saying I don't think 4, possibly 5 down from a league of 16 is a positive change and no one has made an argument for how it would be, yet. If someone makes a valid argument about the benefits and why it would be better, happy to listen.

Apply 4/5 down and 4 up to the current Conference tables, with conferences notionally regionalised and see what you think.

Not saying this will always be the case, but there's a big jump between 8th & 9th in the each conference and the current bottom 3 & 4 in each.

Ach, we’ll just agree to disagree! The points have been made. What I think we can agree on is that Conferences/Regionalisation would be best coming in at Tier 8 with Tier 7 being a First Division.
Promotion and relegation possibilities between these Tiers will no doubt be presented as proposals for clubs to choose between should we ever get that far.

[morley]

Interestingly the Lowland League twitter page is very quiet today when normally on a Friday its busy posting about the upcoming Saturday games. I wonder if their media team (which may be 1 person) are busily helping to draft up this long awaited comms on the next pyramid development out West. 

[Burnie_man]

Pyramid Statement
Features
07/02/2020 By Media Team
Official Statement regarding the latest update from the Pyramid Working Group

It is with regret that recent talks at the Pyramid Working Group (PWG) ended without any consensus on a way forward for the introduction of a West of Scotland League at Tier 6.

The Scottish Lowland Football League (SLFL) and East of Scotland Football League (EoSFL) are strongly committed to the principle of having a structure in place that allows clubs from all parts of the country to find their level in Scottish football. Both Leagues fully support the expansion of the Pyramid in a constructive and orderly way that allows this to happen.

The current system works well for clubs in the East and South of the Lowland League catchment area however there is an obvious gap in the West of the country, both Leagues feel strongly that a West of Scotland league at tier 6 is therefore required to allow clubs in all grades within that area the opportunity to participate in the Pyramid should they so wish. As a result, we now plan to take the process forward, respecting the interests of all clubs and bodies but ensuring that every club in the Lowland area has opportunity to progress through the Pyramid.

Issued by –

George Fraser (Chairperson,SLFL), and John Greenhorn (Chairperson, EoSFL)

[honestman54]

25 minutes ago, Burnie_man said:

Pyramid Statement
Features
07/02/2020 By Media Team
Official Statement regarding the latest update from the Pyramid Working Group

It is with regret that recent talks at the Pyramid Working Group (PWG) ended without any consensus on a way forward for the introduction of a West of Scotland League at Tier 6.

The Scottish Lowland Football League (SLFL) and East of Scotland Football League (EoSFL) are strongly committed to the principle of having a structure in place that allows clubs from all parts of the country to find their level in Scottish football. Both Leagues fully support the expansion of the Pyramid in a constructive and orderly way that allows this to happen.

The current system works well for clubs in the East and South of the Lowland League catchment area however there is an obvious gap in the West of the country, both Leagues feel strongly that a West of Scotland league at tier 6 is therefore required to allow clubs in all grades within that area the opportunity to participate in the Pyramid should they so wish. As a result, we now plan to take the process forward, respecting the interests of all clubs and bodies but ensuring that every club in the Lowland area has opportunity to progress through the Pyramid.

Issued by –

George Fraser (Chairperson,SLFL), and John Greenhorn (Chairperson, EoSFL)

Is that a claoked way of saying that they are going to pursue a WOSFL for next season?

[PastyMan]

11 minutes ago, honestman54 said:

Is that a claoked way of saying that they are going to pursue a WOSFL for next season?

No, it is as close as you will likely get to shouting it from the rooftops that they are going to pursue a WoSFL

 

[Jerry Macguire]

49 minutes ago, honestman54 said:

Is that a claoked way of saying that they are going to pursue a WOSFL for next season?

Nothing cloaked about it. Come on in boys the water is lovely.