Gender Self-ID

[Guest JTS98]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

The only people who want to change the rules on the use of toilets are those who want to stigmatise trans people as being more dangerous than any other group. The "It might be a very low risk but better safe than sorry" brigade.

I don't think most people are really thinking about trans people specifically. I think it's the wider issue of having what are basically (physically and possibly even identifyingly(!?)) men in a space with women and girls.

I don't think it's advancing the discussion to say that people who have a problem with that are bigoted or anti- any particular group. I think that's a fair thing to want to discuss.

The wider issue of what the 'coming out' of the trans community means for women and feminism is one that needs to be addressed more broadly. Part of the problem is the blanket labeling of anybody who doesn't simply nod along to the trans narrative as a bigot. We can see on this thread some posters reaching for the B-word a bit early in the debate.

An example of this is the treatment of Germaine Greer, who made some interesting points about the issue as a whole. Instead of engaging with her argument and having a discussion, many trans activists and media outlets simply shouted her down, no-platformed her and called her a bigot. This is the death of intellectualism and cannot be allowed to stand.

The world is more nuanced than saying "we're all the same and we can all do anything we want". There are competing interests and competing considerations.

[welshbairn]

4 minutes ago, JTS98 said:

 

An example of this is the treatment of Germaine Greer, who made some interesting points about the issue as a whole. Instead of engaging with her argument and having a discussion, many trans activists and media outlets simply shouted her down, no-platformed her and called her a bigot. This is the death of intellectualism and cannot be allowed to stand.

 

I'm convinced that most of the loudest voices on that side of the argument are straight non trans men, right wing misogynist trolls trying very successfully to trigger feminist celebrities into over the top reactions.

[Guest JTS98]

2 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

I'm convinced that most of the loudest voices on that side of the argument are straight non trans men, right wing misogynist trolls trying very successfully to trigger feminist celebrities into over the top reactions.

The loudest voices, yes. But not the only ones. There's a considerable body of feminist work produced by women on the issue. But feminist writing isn't widely read unless it's by a celebrity feminist like Greer.

The trolls online won't go away and appear on pretty much every subject these days. But their existence doesn't mean they are the only voices in the discussion. It's a sign of the times that easily quoted click-bait shite has taken over the public debate, but there's a whole range of arguments beyond them and they are worth hearing.

It's a fair discussion to talk about who gets to call themselves a woman or a man and what that means in terms of what that person can and can't do.

Just like the ongoing issue of freedom of religion against individual rights like the right to buy a cake. What does that mean? Can a muslim ask a christian baker to produce a cake with the Shahada on it? Of course they can. Should a christian baker have to produce said cake if it violates his or her conscience due to the religion that they are allowed to hold? Dunno.

These are interesting times and these things are still fairly up for grabs. It does us no good to just label people on either side instead of actually talking through what these things mean for the society we live in.

[Jacksgranda]

4 hours ago, MONKMAN said:

Was in the Modern (food was unbelievable) in New York in December and they had unisex toilets, which I'll admit I initially found quite odd.  Got to admit it was weird hearing women chat away doing their makeup in the mirrors etc while I was in a cubicle pissing. To my knowledge, I wasn't sexually assaulted by a big hairy woman with a beard and a massive cock. 

Disappointed, imho.

[Mark Connolly]

My mate wants to know how many other people are shocked by the number of these hairy women who seem to have significantly larger than average appendages.

Statistical anomaly reasons rather than petty jealousy, of course.

[welshbairn]

1 hour ago, JTS98 said:

 

The trolls online won't go away and appear on pretty much every subject these days. But their existence doesn't mean they are the only voices in the discussion. It's a sign of the times that easily quoted click-bait shite has taken over the public debate, but there's a whole range of arguments beyond them and they are worth hearing.

 

This site might be worth a go if you want reasoned debate. Sadly I think the trans thing has been hijacked by lunatics on both sides and will only return to sense when they have found something else of zero relevance to most people's lives to obsess about. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-48579597

[DeeTillEhDeh]

 

 

 

Genuine question, and I'm pretty sure P&B is the wrong place to ask, but why is there a dichotomy between the two?  Why does one transgress on the other?

 

More the actions of extreme feminist/lesbian/transgender campaigners.

 

The anti-trans protest at last year's Pride does not fill me with any great hope that extremists will not stick their oars in.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/anti-trans-protests-london-pride-transgender-transphobia-terf-lgbt-feminist-a8448521.html

 

The more extreme feminists class themselves as cisgender which is in direct conflict with the whole ethos of transgenderism.

[RH33]

4 hours ago, welshbairn said:

This site might be worth a go if you want reasoned debate. Sadly I think the trans thing has been hijacked by lunatics on both sides and will only return to sense when they have found something else of zero relevance to most people's lives to obsess about. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-48579597

I’d agree. I’ve met one transitioning person, this was about ten years ago and they used the disabled toilet.

If someone is of a mind to sexually assault or rape someone I very much doubt this law is going to impact the chances of that happening.

 

[welshbairn]

Trans woman ridiculed by Wings.

Troll rt'd by Wings as a typical trans woman.

 

[Kuro]

52 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Trans woman ridiculed by Wings.

Troll rt'd by Wings as a typical trans woman.

 

Evidence of ridicule and use of the word typical please.

[welshbairn]

15 minutes ago, Kuro said:

Evidence of ridicule and use of the word typical please.

Trust me on it. You never come up with any evidence when asked anyway, bit cheeky.

[Kuro]

Just now, welshbairn said:

Trust me on it. You never come up with any evidence when asked anyway, bit cheeky.

I'm still waiting on yours.  I read his twitter feed too, neither of those things are remotely true.

[tirso]

Mono has toilets labelled “urinals and cubicles” and “cubicles only” and as far as I can gather everything is cushty.

And everyone knows cubicles only is just code for womens toilets as well don't they.

[Inanimate Carbon Rod]

Trust me on it. You never come up with any evidence when asked anyway, bit cheeky.

Hes drunk too much cool-aide!

[John Lambies Doos]

Any safeguards against allowing self identifying women from using the womens toilet would be illegal.

It's like Gok Wan pretending to be Gay so he can feel womans tits.

[Assasinach]

Opposition to this self ID in defence of women should then also support opposition to monogamous heterosexual relationships. They are after all the most dangerous environments that women endure are they not ?

[Baxter Parp]

21 hours ago, welshbairn said:

Trans woman ridiculed by Wings.

https://grousebeater.wordpress.com/2019/03/29/taking-umbrage/

He and his counsel argued Campbell champions gay rights, and indeed he has “praised the US whistle-blower Chelsea Manning as a hero”

Hmm.

[DublinMagyar]

I won't pretend to understand the difference between sex and gender but it strikes me that people should be allowed to be whatever and whoever they want to be without interference from anyone else. Far too many people with too much to say about other people whose life choices don't affect anyone but themselves.
It's depressing to see people deliberately conflating trans rights with sexual perverts as though the two are the same. The idea apparently then is that you have to deny trans people their full rights until ALL perverted males are somehow eradicated? What a ridiculous argument that is and Baxter, Kuro and others really should be ashamed to argue in that vein.
It reminds me of the persistence by the Catholic church of conflating homosexuality and child rape. Apparently priests raped children because they were homosexuals and if you sort that problem out you sort child rape as well. Utterly depressing.

Who are you and where have you buried Oaksoft?

[Guest Bob Mahelp]

1 hour ago, oaksoft said:

I won't pretend to understand the difference between sex and gender but it strikes me that people should be allowed to be whatever and whoever they want to be without interference from anyone else. Far too many people with too much to say about other people whose life choices don't affect anyone but themselves.

It's depressing to see people deliberately conflating trans rights with sexual perverts as though the two are the same. The idea apparently then is that you have to deny trans people their full rights until ALL perverted males are somehow eradicated? What a ridiculous argument that is and Baxter, Kuro and others really should be ashamed to argue in that vein.

It reminds me of the persistence by the Catholic church of conflating homosexuality and child rape. Apparently priests raped children because they were homosexuals and if you sort that problem out you sort child rape as well. Utterly depressing.

It's the people who equate homosexuals with paediatricians that get me. 

 

[Arch Stanton]

There were plenty of shared toilets in Belgium, of the dozen or so different bars/restaurants I was in last week, the majority had a single entrance to an open plan area, urinals to one side but in full view and cubicles, sometimes with gender-specific signage, sometimes not. However as this was the only toilet facility it was obviously there for everyone.

A lot of them were dilapidated suggesting the Belgians have been fine with this arrangement for some time.