Highland Pyramid

[Cyclizine]

53 minutes ago, Spyro said:

Really???

Parts of the Cairngorms are in Moray, so there's several Munros, including Ben Macdui which is the second highest (although technically it's in Banffshire).

Edited August 13, 2020 by Cyclizine

[Marten]

3 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

It's simple. Islands, Speyside, Campbelltown and Islay all have a playoff.

That playoff winner competes against Lowland, Highland and Club 42.

True representation of all of Scotland

Groundhoppers dream. Think of the trips!

At least that could change the nightmare scenario of "Elgin on a Tuesday night" to "Barra on a Tuesday night".  

[Spyro]

2 hours ago, Cyclizine said:

Parts of the Cairngorms are in Moray, so there's several Munros, including Ben Macdui which is the second highest (although technically it's in Banffshire).

I would’ve said Speyside/Aberdeenshire for Ben Macdui. Usually start the ascent from the back of Aviemore or Braemar, up the Larghi Gru (spelling!)... but I might be wrong. Sorry for going off piste, the Tayside thing is getting boring now

[Marten]

17 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

I can easily dig up the urls for the media stories from back in January related to the boundary shift and the info related to Option Z. I'll take your bluster on this as a sign that you can't do something similar. The idea that the SFA would even raise Option Z without sounding out the HL and SPFL about it first is bizarre, but you and others on here clearly seem to believe that's how they would operate.

No sources have ever confirmed the SPFL were ok with 3 feeders. You have made that bit up to suit your "argument", but nice try...

[LongTimeLurker]

51 minutes ago, Marten said:

No sources have ever confirmed the SPFL were ok with 3 feeders. You have made that bit up to suit your "argument", but nice try...

OK, Einstein. That's an absurd characterisation of what I did. Here is the exchange in question. At no point did I state there were credible sources (woodpile guy from the WRSJFA doesn't count here) that explictly stated that the SPFL were OK with three feeders. What I did is point to the pieces of information from the mainstream media that are in the public domain from earlier this year that make it a reasonable inference and I used the word "seem" to make it crystal clear to anyone in possession of a three digit IQ that this was based on inference rather than something explicitly stated. You on the other hand in the bolded text below claim that something has been made "very clear". When was that? Can you point me to what you are basing this assertion on without any more empty bluster or childish red dots?

19 hours ago, Marten said:

21 hours ago, LongTimeLurker said:

The SPFL seem to have been OK with three feeders when Option Z was up for discussion in a PWG context back in January. There were indications in the media that a boundary shift to please the Angus SPFL clubs was anticipated at that point and Option Z would have provided that with an HL (NCL + north region), LL East (EoS + east region) and LL West (SoS + west region) pyramid arrangement feeding into the Club 42 playoff.
The LL did not agree to split, which they had to do to eliminate the EoS effective veto over the LL tier 6 promotion playoff format, so that got nowhere. The WoS had to be pursued instead to get the west region clubs in after things reached a complete impasse between the LL/EoS and the SJFA on what to do next. That left the remaining east region clubs out in the cold.
This leaves Tayside in limbo to a significant extent, because the HL is still only negotiating with the NCL + north region and Tayside seemingly never even rates a mention as a future possibility in that context. The SFA, HL and SPFL appear to want Tayside to go south, the EoS appear open to voting on applications from Tayside clubs after Luncarty got in despite being marginally north of the Club 42 relegation rule boundary, but the attitude of the LL to what will unfold long term remains unclear and could still prove to be problematic.
The LL clubs rejected a change to the Club 42 relegation rule boundary at their recent AGM in the aftermath of Kelty or Brora not getting a playoff against Brechin City this year.

The SPFL have NEVER been open to 3 tier 5 feeders. They originally only wanted one feeder, but accepted two as a compromise. They've made very clear more won't be accepted. For that reason "option Z" was a non-starter and shouldn't have been suggested by the SJFA / WRJFA. Whatever the LL thought of it was really irrelevant because it was never seriously on the table. Stop peddling these lies.

 

[Marten]

27 minutes ago, LongTimeLurker said:

OK, Einstein. That's an absurd characterisation of what I did. Here is the exchange in question. At no point did I state there were credible sources (woodpile guy from the WRSJFA doesn't count here) that explictly stated that the SPFL were OK with three feeders. What I did is point to the pieces of information from the mainstream media that are in the public domain from earlier this year that make it a reasonable inference and I used the word "seem" to make it crystal clear to anyone in possession of a three digit IQ that this was based on inference rather than something explicitly stated. You on the other hand in the bolded text below claim that something has been made "very clear". When was that? Can you point me to what you are basing this assertion on without any more empty bluster or childish red dots?

You said pretty much nothing in that post. You made the claim that the "SPFL seem to have been OK with three feeders" and your pathetic post makes pretty clear that what I just stated is just true: you made that up yourself without basing it on anything. There is nothing that even implies they were ok with it.

[prodcast]

12 hours ago, Spyro said:

Really???

Yeah. Ben Avon, which is pretty much a mountain range in itself, one of Cairngorm's summits, half of Ben Macdui, and various other Munros/Munro tops I think are all in Morayshire.

Something to be proud of!

14 hours ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Things are progressing without them. The creation of the WoSFL for 2020-21 into the pyramid. The NCL possibly entering the pyramid for 2020-21 and the possiblity of the North Region Juniors entering alongside or soon enough.

At this point if the Tayside Juniors are entering the pyramid its by applying to the EoSFL or hooking up with whatever Highland League feeder system gets set up.

When it comes to the Angus SPFL clubs Arbroath are in the SPFL Championship, Forfar Athletic & Montrose are in SPFL League One, and Brechin City are in SPFL League Two. Three of the clubs are immediately worried about getting relegated to the Highland or Lowland anytime soon and Brechin City's focus is in avoiding being Club 42. Brechin City possibly being relegated this year was the main driver in possibly changing the boundary line.

While the boundary line was part of discussions of the non-league PWG talks, those are over now so nothing would have been changed on that front.

So much progress, really; nearly there. 

I'm still vexed by the likes of Golspie stepping up to a full HL season without participating in a shorter intermediary HL2 season, which may explain why they weren't invited to take Cove's place yet Banks o'Dee were, and also by where Brechin and Montrose juniors go if the Tayside/LL boundary moves north.

[LongTimeLurker]

20 minutes ago, Marten said:

You said pretty much nothing in that post. You made the claim that the "SPFL seem to have been OK with three feeders" and your pathetic post makes pretty clear that what I just stated is just true: you made that up yourself without basing it on anything. There is nothing that even implies they were ok with it.

Nothing more than empty bluster and another childish dot because you lack the social skills be able to cope with someone who disagrees with you as a rational intelligent adult. Your failure to provide info about where the SPFL made it very clear that they would accept no more than two tier 5 feeders makes it clear now that you are in fact the person that was making stuff up in that exchange.

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[Marten]

Nothing more than empty bluster and another childish dot because you lack the social skills be able to cope with someone who disagrees with you as a rational intelligent adult. Your failure to provide info about where the SPFL made it very clear that they would accept no more than two tier 5 feeders makes it clear now that you are in fact the person that was making stuff up in that exchange.
 

Not once you have backed up your claim and you keep coming with childish personal attacks instead. Well done...

At least try to back up your claim if you can?

[FairWeatherFan]

10 minutes ago, prodcast said:

So much progress, really; nearly there. 

I'm still vexed by the likes of Golspie stepping up to a full HL season without participating in a shorter intermediary HL2 season, which may explain why they weren't invited to take Cove's place yet Banks o'Dee were, and also by where Brechin and Montrose juniors go if the Tayside/LL boundary moves north.

Once the NCL and North Region are signed up to the pyramid, there will only be 30 clubs from the semi-pro non-league world sitting outside. And 1 of those 30 are already known to be applying to the EoSFL. The pyramid is by no means complete but it almost has all the ingredients together to work with.

Golspie Sutherland were not asked to join the Highland League as they don't have floodlights.

The request from the SPFL was not to move the boundary line but to scrap it entirely. A process like that exists in the Lowland League, but its all the league bodies (LL, EoSFL, SoSFL, and WoSFL) that decide who goes where. From what i've seen it would be the SPFL alone that would make the decision, possibly leaving it up to the clubs themselves.

[LongTimeLurker]

5 minutes ago, Marten said:

Not once you have backed up your claim...

Comic more than anything else that you clearly don't understand the difference between making an inference and using the phrase "seem to have been OK" to make it crystal clear that it was only that and making a claim. You are the one that claimed something to be proven fact and you have not backed it up.

[welshbairn]

35 minutes ago, prodcast said:

 

I'm still vexed by the likes of Golspie stepping up to a full HL season without participating in a shorter intermediary HL2 season, which may explain why they weren't invited to take Cove's place yet Banks o'Dee were, and also by where Brechin and Montrose juniors go if the Tayside/LL boundary moves north.

Any team can apply to join the HL at any time, they don't have to wait for an invitation. The only team to do so whilst there's been an obvious vacancy since Cove Rangers were promoted, was Caley Thistle Colts who certainly weren't invited and were told where to go. Not sure what you mean by an intermediary HL2 season. As @FairWeatherFan said Golspie don't have floodlights, but not sure if that would be an automatic bar if they committed to installing them, I'm pretty sure Fort William were permitted to spend their first few seasons without them, probably aided by their inability to host home matches during the Winter months.

Edited August 14, 2020 by welshbairn

[Marten]

Comic more than anything else that you clearly don't understand the difference between making an inference and using the phrase "seem to have been OK" to make it crystal clear that it was only that and making a claim. You are the one that claimed something to be proven fact and you have not backed it up.

Saying "seem to have been OK" still should be based on something. So what did you base it on? If you don't come with anything I stick by saying that you just made it up yourself.

And about the SPFL not wanting more than 2 feeders (and originally only one), that has been reported on here various times for a start.

[Jacksgranda]

21 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Any team can apply to join the HL at any time, they don't have to wait for an invitation. The only team to do so whilst there's been an obvious vacancy since Cove Rangers were promoted, was Caley Thistle Colts who certainly weren't invited and were told where to go. Not sure what you mean by an intermediary HL2 season. As @FairWeatherFan said Golspie don't have floodlights, but not sure if that would be an automatic bar if they committed to installing them, I'm pretty sure Fort William were permitted to spend their first few seasons without them, probably aided by their inability to host home matches during the Winter months.

Completely off topic, but when I moved to Northern Ireland in 1973 I was stunned to discover the vast majority of Irish League clubs (well, there were only 12 back then) not only didn't have floodlights but didn't have (much) terracing/covering either, used as I was to the Scottish and Highland leagues.

Things have changed dramatically since then.

[FairWeatherFan]

21 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

Any team can apply to join the HL at any time, they don't have to wait for an invitation. The only team to do so whilst there's been an obvious vacancy since Cove Rangers were promoted, was Caley Thistle Colts who certainly weren't invited and were told where to go. Not sure what you mean by an intermediary HL2 season. As @FairWeatherFan said Golspie don't have floodlights, but not sure if that would be an automatic bar if they committed to installing them, I'm pretty sure Fort William were permitted to spend their first few seasons without them, probably aided by their inability to host home matches during the Winter months.

I think just about every recent successful applicant to the Highland League has had some form of ground improvements to make. If Golspie had applied they probably would have gotten in and the commitment to get floodlights would have already been there in having to keep their SFA licence anyway.

[Jimmy Shaker]

I'm pretty sure having floodlights is a requirement to get into the SHFL these days. The last three entrants were allowed in without everything that I believe is asked of prospective entrants, but had to show they were committed to getting them done (lights, fencing round the ground you can't see through, etc).

While doing the all time table last month it was strange to see so many varied KO times all across the league right up til the mid-90's. Can't remember who the last to get lights were, Lossie's didn't arrive til the early 90's.

[LongTimeLurker]

57 minutes ago, Marten said:

Saying "seem to have been OK" still should be based on something. So what did you base it on? ...

All in the original post. There were media reports that the boundary issue was possibly about to get sorted in favour of the Angus SPFL clubs at around the same time that the SFA asked the various LL feeder related negotiation parties to consider and canvas opinion on Option Z through the PWG process. That boundary shift could only happen through an agreement involving the SPFL, SFA, HL and LL, so it is reasonable to infer that the SFA and SPFL would have been in close contact about what was happening and given the timing that Option Z was designed to be the magic bullet that fixed several pyramid related issues quickly all at once (i.e. how to get the three junior regions in with the SJFA still intact and move Tayside south). That's never been explicitly stated anywhere in mainstream media terms, so I was careful to use wording to highlight that it was based on inference. When the PWG process went tits up is likely to be when the SPFL tried to strongarm the LL into still agreeing the boundary shift in the manner described by George Fraser.

Edited August 14, 2020 by LongTimeLurker

[prodcast]

1 hour ago, FairWeatherFan said:

Once the NCL and North Region are signed up to the pyramid, there will only be 30 clubs from the semi-pro non-league world sitting outside. And 1 of those 30 are already known to be applying to the EoSFL. The pyramid is by no means complete but it almost has all the ingredients together to work with.

Golspie Sutherland were not asked to join the Highland League as they don't have floodlights.

The request from the SPFL was not to move the boundary line but to scrap it entirely. A process like that exists in the Lowland League, but its all the league bodies (LL, EoSFL, SoSFL, and WoSFL) that decide who goes where. From what i've seen it would be the SPFL alone that would make the decision, possibly leaving it up to the clubs themselves.

 

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Any team can apply to join the HL at any time, they don't have to wait for an invitation. The only team to do so whilst there's been an obvious vacancy since Cove Rangers were promoted, was Caley Thistle Colts who certainly weren't invited and were told where to go. Not sure what you mean by an intermediary HL2 season. As @FairWeatherFan said Golspie don't have floodlights, but not sure if that would be an automatic bar if they committed to installing them, I'm pretty sure Fort William were permitted to spend their first few seasons without them, probably aided by their inability to host home matches during the Winter months.

What l have in mind is the current north juniors' top tier, which has or had fewer teams/games than the HL but a similar catchment area, being a suitable intermediate step for clubs promoted from various district leagues - such as the North Caley, the current north junior second tier with its parallel sub-regions, and the Tayside juniors (all feeding in, therefore, at tier 7) - to progress through on their way to the HL.

But I suspect the Tayside juniors will go south because player recruitment may be easier for them.

[prodcast]

41 minutes ago, FairWeatherFan said:

I think just about every recent successful applicant to the Highland League has had some form of ground improvements to make. If Golspie had applied they probably would have gotten in and the commitment to get floodlights would have already been there in having to keep their SFA licence anyway.

So does that leave the question open as to why they were not invited to replace Cove, but Banks o'Dee were?

[Jimmy Shaker]

Banks O'Dee were asked because we all knew they'd say no. 

IMO. 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Jimmy Shaker