Coronavirus (COVID-19)

[DeeTillEhDeh]

MPs hear why Hong Kong had no Covid-19 care home deaths

Prof Terry Lum tells of strict infection control measures that were ignored in the UK https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/may/19/mps-hear-why-hong-kong-had-no-covid-19-care-home-deaths Hong Kong has recorded zero deaths in care homes from Covid-19 by employing strict infection control measures that were ignored in the UK, MPs were told on Tuesday as the death toll from the virus in English and Welsh care homes reached almost 15,000.

Despite sharing a border with China, Prof Terry Lum, the head of social care policy at Hong Kong University, told the UK parliament’s health and social care select committee that Hong Kong treated the outbreak like Sars, the killer virus that hit Asia in 2003, and saved lives.

By contrast, the UK’s response to coronavirus was based on planning for a flu pandemic.

Lum said care facilities in Hong Kong had been highly vigilant against spread from hospitals with any confirmed cases quarantined for up to three months.

This contrasted with evidence from Prof Martin Green, the chief executive of Care England, which represents the largest provider networks, who said asymptomatic and symptomatic Covid-19 patients were discharged from hospitals into care homes spreading the virus.

“Most important is stopping the transmission from hospital to nursing home,” Lum said. “We do a very good job on isolation. Once we have any person infected we isolate them in hospital for three months and at the same time we isolate all the close contact people in a separate quarantine centre for 14 days for observation.

 

In red - I hope this gets investigated and certain people are held accountable for this.

 

 

This is hindsight bias at its worst.  

 

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken.

 

I also think it's easy to look back in hindsight and say things should have been done differently - it never fails to amaze me how many people suddenly become experts well after the fact. The reality is that no government - Labour, Tory or whatever was prepared for the scale of this tragedy. I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best of preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.

 

 

 

 

[Todd_is_God]

Just now, madwullie said:

lol

Oh, you don't agree?

[madwullie]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

A lot on "convenient" stories about today, maybe it's a symptom. Hope the stage 4 cancer sufferers being refused treatment was one them.

On that subject, I was in the day unit at hairmyres today getting my bloods done and every chair was full. I'd say the youngest there was about 65. Found that pretty heartening tbh

[engelbert_humperdink]

1 minute ago, welshbairn said:

A lot on "convenient" stories about today, maybe it's a symptom. Hope the stage 4 cancer sufferers being refused treatment was one of them

Nothing convenient on my end, only what I have seen. Not a generalised comment on the older or vulnerable population.

[madwullie]

Just now, Todd_is_God said:

Oh, you don't agree?

I just find it pointless to continue arguing whether some fantasist off p&b who would sell his own granny to be able to go to transmt did or didn't see some specifically aged woman with unknown health conditions at the shop or not which just so happens at the same time to back up what he is arguing. 

[vikingTON]

1 hour ago, madwullie said:

At the risk of being glib, "we" could just cancel HS2 right now and wipe out any financial issues. Trident and we could have world class public services coming out the arse end of this to boot, plus we could furlough well into next year barely scratching the surface. I think I read 14Bn a month to furlough?

The problem is not money, or a lack of it, its what our taxes are spent on that's the issue. 

The collapse in economic output and ballooning business failure and unemployment will cost far more over the long term than the furlough scheme will for six months. And the UK government has a mandate until 2024 so the immediate outcome of the who is going to pay for it debate is already baked in. 

A continued shutdown will therefore prove a complete disaster for workers as well as people entering the labour market over the next decade; it's not a left/right debate but rather competence versus unprepared stupidity. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by vikingTON

[Marshmallo]

1 hour ago, NotThePars said:

You aren't abrasive enough to hit the box office levels. Need to start some feuds in time for Summerslam season.

There are Posters on here with over 20k "green" reputation who post nothing but inane generic filler. It used to bother me when I was trying to crack the formula for hitting the Top 10 but now I couldn't give a shiny shit to tell you the truth.

Some proper sad acts on here who live for The Reputation System.

[madwullie]

Tbh the green shit means nothing because there's been so many purges down the years. I used to be top 5  

[Granny Danger]

1 minute ago, Marshmallo said:

There are Posters on here with over 20k "green" reputation who post nothing but inane generic filler. It used to bother me when I was trying to crack the formula for hitting the Top 10 but now I couldn't give a shiny shit to tell you the truth.

Some proper sad acts on here who live for The Reputation System.

An insight into a disturbed mind.  You’ve explained a lot with that post, better than any tear stained resignation imo.

[Marshmallo]

Just now, madwullie said:

Tbh the green shit means nothing because there's been so many purges down the years. I used to be top 5  

Agreed, but then you'll get the likes of @Ric starting threads about coloured circles. Doesn't make a lick of sense to me but each to their own I suppose.

[Marshmallo]

Just now, Granny Danger said:

An insight into a disturbed mind.  You’ve explained a lot with that post, better than any tear stained resignation imo.

Awwww shut up man

[Honest Saints Fan]

10 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

A lot on "convenient" stories about today, maybe it's a symptom. Hope the stage 4 cancer sufferers being refused treatment was one them.

No one will be "refused" treatment. Advised that it is safer to not have treatment at the moment maybe. I know they have stopped recruiting for all clinical trials for my cancer at the moment but the standard treatment is still available (apart from stem cell transplant but that kills your immune system so too dangerous just now). I know a few of the cancer community on twitter are pissed off at Cancer Research UK who are diverting clinical trial and research money to Coronavirus research which they shouldn't be doing. 

[madwullie]

3 minutes ago, Honest Saints Fan said:

No one will be "refused" treatment. Advised that it is safer to not have treatment at the moment maybe. I know they have stopped recruiting for all clinical trials for my cancer at the moment but the standard treatment is still available (apart from stem cell transplant but that kills your immune system so too dangerous just now). I know a few of the cancer community on twitter are pissed off at Cancer Research UK who are diverting clinical trial and research money to Coronavirus research which they shouldn't be doing. 

That's shocking, I didn't know that  

Can't imagine people who have donated would be too chuffed at that either. Is there not a law against that? 

[vikingTON]

As an aside to herd immunity v herd stupidity debate, some genuine comedy entertainment has been provided today by the legions of plummy, middle class, English Tories whining on the news because they've just been sacked and have worked out that Universal Credit isn't quite the scroungers' golden ticket that they always thought it was. 

What a terrible, wee shame to see them going under. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by vikingTON

[welshbairn]

14 minutes ago, DeeTillEhDeh said:

This is hindsight bias at its worst.

 

It was never entirely a scientific decision - economics were always going to play a part. The cost of lockdown measures is going to be anywhere up to £550 billion for the UK. If we had gone earlier then I don't think they would be able to sustain the economic measures taken.

 

I also think it's easy to look back in hindsight and say things should have been done differently - it never fails to amaze me how many people suddenly become experts well after the fact. The reality is that no government - Labour, Tory or whatever was prepared for the scale of this tragedy. I've no problem any government being held to account - but it must be based on facts and no notional what-ifs.

 

I also have doubts that an earlier lockdown would have made that much difference in the Care Sector - lots of crocodile tears and whining from the bosses of Care Home firms who seem to accept very little responsibility for their own actions and their long-running poor treatment of their own staff.

 

It's a complex issue and there isn't a magic bullet solution.

 

Lockdown is also very dependent on cooperation of the populace - in some countries (I'm thinking of the Nordic countries) there is definitely a more cultural tendency to do this - we on the other hand seem to have more of the "I'll do what I want" attitudes and those who try to ignore the rules - wasn't it 600+ parties broken up alone in Manchester in one weekend? Some countries have gone down the more draconian route - something that I perhaps think should have happened - but I also recognise there is a strong tradition in this country of not limiting civil liberties - it is always a fine balancing act.

 

I think it is right once this is all over that there is a proper evaluation - not just to stick the boot in - but also to learn from this and prepare better for the future.

 

One of things that seems to be clear is that the UK was severely under-prepared for any type of pandemic - not just coronavirus. That being said, I'm still not sure even the best if preparations would have readied us for this - this is unlike anything we've faced in a long long time.

It didn't help that SARS1 turned into a damp squib here, our professionals didn't live through how scary it was, with much higher fatality but a lower infection rate, maybe partly as a consequence.

[Thereisalight..]

1 hour ago, welshbairn said:

Did you offer to do her shopping for her?

I’ve offered to be part of the volunteer system in my town, which includes shopping for the elderly, so yes

56 minutes ago, engelbert_humperdink said:

A pensioner got on the bus yesterday, had a go at the driver for how long he was waiting at the bus stop, then went and sat right behind some woman. I can't blame a lot of them because at that age time really is precious. They may just have the f**k it they could drop dead next month, not going to sit on my arse for my last days, and I cannot sit here and say that I wouldnt probably do the same

That’s exactly what a large percentage of them will be thinking. The ones that are set in their ways are going about daily life as normal rather than the “new normal”

49 minutes ago, madwullie said:

They could get treatment, the risk is if they go to a hospital and catch covid. Their oncologist has taken the decisions that covid is more dangerous to them than not having treatment. 

This would be the case whether we're in lockdown or not, so short of wishing the virus away I'm not really sure what you're arguing here. 

One of the women said she knows without treatment that she will have weeks/months to live. I don’t see why covid patients can’t be moved to the Louisa Jordan and allow treatments and operations to go ahead at every other hospital 

17 minutes ago, welshbairn said:

A lot on "convenient" stories about today, maybe it's a symptom. Hope the stage 4 cancer sufferers being refused treatment was one them.

It was on the STV news at 6. I’m sure you’d be able to get it on the STV player now 

11 minutes ago, madwullie said:

I just find it pointless to continue arguing whether some fantasist off p&b who would sell his own granny to be able to go to transmt did or didn't see some specifically aged woman with unknown health conditions at the shop or not which just so happens at the same time to back up what he is arguing. 

I swear on my mum’s life that I saw that old woman at the shop today. I don’t see what lying about it would achieve 

[Todd_is_God]

18 minutes ago, madwullie said:

I just find it pointless to continue arguing whether some fantasist off p&b who would sell his own granny to be able to go to transmt did or didn't see some specifically aged woman with unknown health conditions at the shop or not which just so happens at the same time to back up what he is arguing. 

Who are you talking about?

[Todd_is_God]

Just now, Snafu said:

''Nothing is going to stop me buying this packet of snowballs and cramming the lot into my face with my afternoon tea because I might be dead tomorrow''.

Quality of live overrules all when you're at that age. Its the wee enjoyments along with visits from family and friends that make it all worthwhile.

Life just now for some must be unbearable.

I absolutely agree with that.

It must be shite.

But at the same time, restrictions are in place to prevent the NHS becoming overwhelmed, and it is that demographic that would be most likely to overwhelm it.

If the most vulnerable are happy to ignore the restrictions, then it renders the "aye but what about the people the young ones pass it on to?" argument against easing restrictions moot.

[madwullie]

14 minutes ago, Thereisalight.. said:

 

One of the women said she knows without treatment that she will have weeks/months to live. I don’t see why covid patients can’t be moved to the Louisa Jordan and allow treatments and operations to go ahead at every other hospital 

Like I said, because her oncologist has determined the risk of catching corona virus is more dangerous than not having treatment. It doesn't matter which hospital, or where it is. While the virus is still as present in society in general as it is this isn't going to change. It's not really got anything to do with the lockdown. 

The main issues with added deaths and cancer is people who are scared to go to the doctor (with a new lump or whatever) in case they catch it, or people who have a scan postponed and in the meantime their cancer progresses beyond curable. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by madwullie
Extra info

[vikingTON]

15 minutes ago, Snafu said:

''Nothing is going to stop me buying this packet of snowballs and cramming the lot into my face with my afternoon tea because I might be dead tomorrow''.

Quality of live overrules all when you're at that age. Its the wee enjoyments along with visits from family and friends that make it all worthwhile.

Life just now for some must be unbearable.

That's all well and good but when the society around you is demolishing its economy for a decade to directly protect you from getting popped off then bumbling down to the shops as usual five times per week becomes an inherently selfish act. Old people who actually are shielding at a cost to themselves shouldn't be packaged together with those are too stubborn to change either. 

Edited May 19, 2020 by vikingTON